700 years later... (my players stay out)

[Nareau]

I'm currently running a 13-session campaign to detail the history of my campaign world. It's taking place 700 years in the past, relative to the main campaign.

During these 13-sessions, the PC's will witness the downfall of a peaceful empire (of elves and orisha/spirits) as it is overthrown by a small group of very powerful wizards. These wizards are anti-religion, anti-gods, power-hungry, demon-serving, brainwashing nazis.

Their revolution is largely (and secretly) powered by an imprisoned Ogremoch, the Ancient Prince of Evil Elemental Earth. With his aid, the wizards are able to slay the 7 gods of the world. Ultimately, he's just using the wizards to aid in his escape.

We're getting ready to get into the "present day" campaign. Playing through the wizards' revolution has made me think more about the effects of 7 centuries under their rule.

Here's what I've got so far:

1) The "monsters" are all slain or driven out. The wizards (elves) consider any creature that's not an elf or animal to be a "monster". Goblins, dwarves, gnomes, kobolds, carrion-crawlers--they're all abominations in the eyes of the state.

2) The wizards magically enslave anyone that threatens them (artists, bards, sorcerors, shamans, etc.) Indeed, there is virtually no other magic on the continent besides the wizards.

3) 99.9% of the population is content with the way things are. The country is (mostly) safe to travel. Water and food are always in good supply. Travel, communication, entertainment--all have vastly improved thanks to the wizardric government.

4) The gods have all been killed--so no priests, healing, resurrection, etc. The wizards have worked hard to eliminate superstition, belief in the soul/afterlife, etc.

5) Very few "heroes" exist. If anyone shines too brightly--ie, 10th level or greater--the wizards typically respond by permanently enslaving them. This enslavement is considered an honor, and the subject lives a happy (if utterly uninspired) life. Of course, state-employed wizards are encouraged to study constantly.

I'm looking for suggestions on what unexpected results these conditions might breed. For instance:

With no more belief in the soul, many of the rituals and taboos concerning death have vanished. Indeed, undead labor is widely used in the cities to perform menial tasks. When a person dies, their body is dessicated/embalmed, then animated to work in the mines, carry water, clean houses, etc.

Military and civil "police" forces have been greatly reduced. Why maintain a huge city guard when you can keep half a dozen high-level wizards on "teleport alert" at all times. If there's a disturbance, some form of magical communication signals the city's central office, and a few 11th level wizards are dispatched. If it's a greater threat, wizards from all over the continent can instantly teleport to the site with plenty of aid.

I've been reading up on this Monte's technology stuff, and I plan on using some of the guns and robots from there. But any more ideas are welcome!

Spider

 

[Andor]

Sounds to me like it might have evolved into a rigid caste system ala India but with a vastly different religious/worldview driving it.

If the wizards have shaped society to be anti-religon/anti-god with the (rather apt) justification that the Wizard-Lords defeated them (Doubtless because they were horrid demons, ask any history professor) then they must have created some new belief system to ensure the stability of their rule. Perhaps the defeated Demons(gods) are primordial beings of chaos and thought the wizards drove them away they lurk on the fringes of the world trying to get in and the living of orderly, disciplined lives helps to prevent the universe from descending into chaos and ending. So children grow to work in the professions of their fathers or as the needs of society (IE: Wizard-Lords) demand and live unambitious lives fearfull that greed or trying to rise above their station will allow the demons entry into their lives.

So what you end up with is a India like caste system with all the castes (Except of course the Wizard-Lords who know the truth.) living within the confines of the system because as far as they know they are actually in WHFRP instead of DnD, and being good keeps chaos away. You have a rules loving, parochial, fearful populous, devoted to the Wizards-Lords who drove away chaos, who will be terribly conformist, and afraid of those who don't conform. Caste rights and priviledges will be jealously guarded.

Not a great place for adventurer who don't fit into some kind of conceptual slot the populace can understand.

Of course the truth is remembered by those the Wizard-Lords drove from their lands, who are doubtless seem as chaos serving monsters by Joe-on-the-street.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[dungeon blaster]

Sounds interesting, but I wonder how fun it will be to play in the "past" (700 years earlier). The players might feel railroaded into watching events unfold and having no ability to change them.

Here's some questions: why isn't everyone a wizard? more specifically, are only certain people allowed to train as wizards? are there specialists and how do they fit in with the mages and society? how do people view magic? Is it mysterious and powerful, the tools of the mighty wizard-lords alone? Or is it viewed more like technology, a tool to be used by anyone who spends the time learning it.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

All political systems, whatever the flavor, eventually grow fat and comfortable and corrupt. (I think there may even be a saying to this effect!)

Now, while the magocracy isn't going to be worrying about political grandstanding for political gain, since they have power firmly under their control, once their concerns move from "how do we kick the butt of the gods and eliminate all threats to our power" to "what's for lunch?" the differences between the wizards will be given time to develop. In a 700 year period, even the most outwardly united group will find plenty of time to develop major schisms, particularly since the apparent lack of outside threats means these petty issues can be given more weight than they'd normally receive.

Maybe certain specializations are looked down upon -- could Divination be dangerously close to kissing divine butt? Likewise, planar travel lets young wizards go meet divine beings on their own; surely that's unacceptable.

Maybe certain theories of magic are argued so vociferiously between certain mages and their retinues that violence has resulted. This could either mean a change to how scholarly debate occurs -- maybe it's forbidden! -- or it could mean that behind the scenes sniping has replaced turning your enemy to molten glass when you disagree about the intent of a scholarly text from 1,000 years ago. Few battles are as harsh as the bloodless ones fought in the halls of academia.

Along those lines, if wizardry is the route to power, what does that make sorcery? It sounds like dangerous uncontrolled and unforseen element. This goes double for psionics, so woe to sorcerers and psychics of all sorts.

Maybe they know they've been used by Ogremoch. It has been 700 years, after all. How would elementals be treated? Do the wizards feel used? And if so, what are they going to do about it?

After 700 years, the antisocial tendencies a lot of wizards feel will have had ample time to manifest and calcify. I'd expect to see a continent ruled by wizard warlords, all nominally loyal to a central government, but in practice, a patchwork of customs that all boil down to "don't piss off the local ruling wizard."

Without resurrection, raise dead and the like, mortality will be a big bugaboo for these wizards. Even elves die (in most worlds) and I'd expect the various flavors of lich to be common and popular.

After 700 years, that guy whose quirks once irritated you is the person whose very name fills you with a murderous rage. While the wizards might be united against an outside threat (at least, the outside threats believe it), it wouldn't be hard to see a group of militaristic wizards making plans to kill one another, even if none of them intends to ever fire the first shot. Of course, that just means one of the heroes has to fake that first shot being fired or accidentally do something that could be intepreted that way.

 

[Slife]

Why not have some sort of secret three-person cell organization of clerics? They could be working to bring back the good gods, who were only sealed in their home planes instead of being destroyed. The wizard-lords kill and interrogate them whenever they can, but the clerical underground is able to defend itself from most intrusion simply because of its pervasiveness and loose organization.

 

[Nareau]

Sounds to me like it might have evolved into a rigid caste system ala India but with a vastly different religious/worldview driving it.

Very interesting idea! I was planning on having them develop an egalitarian society--kinda like communism. My thinking was to model RL communist nations (USSR, China), where everyone is equal (except, of course, the leaders). Having a rigid caste system would provide a better incentive to the good guys (PC's) that this is a government in need of overthrowing.

If the wizards have shaped society to be anti-religon/anti-god with the (rather apt) justification that the Wizard-Lords defeated them (Doubtless because they were horrid demons, ask any history professor)

Heh, of course. Terrible demons who would steal your soul in exchange for parlor tricks.

Not a great place for adventurer who don't fit into some kind of conceptual slot the populace can understand.

Indeed. That's why I consider myself a rat-bastard DM. The PC's will be entering enemy territory, hated by all they meet.

9 out of 10 adventures our group plays through involves killing evil cultists. Of course, the evil cultists are trying to ressurect old dead gods and overthrow the current order. In this campaign, the PC's will be the outcasts trying to resurrect old, dead gods...

Spider

 

[Nareau]

Sounds interesting, but I wonder how fun it will be to play in the "past" (700 years earlier). The players might feel railroaded into watching events unfold and having no ability to change them.

Yeah, this is something I've been struggling with. I made sure to let all the players know that this would be something of a doomed/hopeless game before we started. And I've been trying to present it as, "If you fail, the world ends (as Ogremoch is released); if you succeed, you'll at least forestall the apocalypse for 700 years." It's depressing at times, but overall we've been having a lot of fun.

Here's some questions: why isn't everyone a wizard?

Hrm. That's a really good question. I almost want to consider what would happen if everyone were wizards. Maybe this is a world where anyone of average intelligence is trained in the Arts, much in the same way average-intelligence US citizens are trained in Algebra or basic Physics. I'd certainly want to look into a more practical spell list for 0th, 1st, and 2nd level spells. I'll have to think more on this...

more specifically, are only certain people allowed to train as wizards?

I had been thinking that only the "nobility" are allowed to study the Arts. That would allow the powerful to maintain their bloodline for a long time. Perhaps only certain people are allowed to learn anything more powerful than a 1st level spell?

are there specialists and how do they fit in with the mages and society?

I don't see any problem with specialists. I view the continent as a confederation of 3 dozen or so city-states, each ruled over by a powerful wizard. Perhaps each city-state could focus on the magics that their wizard-specialist-ruler focuses on...

how do people view magic? Is it mysterious and powerful, the tools of the mighty wizard-lords alone? Or is it viewed more like technology, a tool to be used by anyone who spends the time learning it.

That's a really tough one. Part of me wants this to be a society that's completely lost its sense of wonder--magic is just technology, and even the greatest miracles are no more special than hitting the 'defrost' button on your house-hold fire-box. Another part of me wants to have the magocracy holding firm control of their power, and for them to strictly monitor/control any magic on the continent. I think I'm going to try and find some kind of compromise...

Spider

 

[Nareau]

All political systems, whatever the flavor, eventually grow fat and comfortable and corrupt. (I think there may even be a saying to this effect!)

Indeed. The overall world-history is divided into 700-year chunks (which correspond to the Phoenix's Resurrection).
2800BC: Gods imprison the Ancient Elemental Lords, populate the world with animals and plants
2100BC: Elves from the southern jungle migrate north, driven out of their homes by some unknown evil. As they travel through the northern deserts, they come into conflict with the Orisha--the spirits and monsters of the deserts. 700 years of war ensue.
1400BC: Burgeoning elven wizards discover Ogremoch's prison, and then use its magic to slay one of the immortal gods; this act, like Hiroshima, forces a peace between the opposing forces. A golden age, 700 years of peace ensue, with the gods ruling over the elves.
700BC: These same wizards, under Ogremoch's guidance, slay all the remaining gods. They try to resurrect Ogremoch, but are thwarted by the PC's. 700 years of technology, science, and order ensue.
0BC: The "modern" campaign. The PC's have to restore the gods, overthrow the wizards, and destroy Ogremoch once and for all.

The wizards were able to take control because the 700 years of peace had made everyone "soft". The current-day PC's will be able to disrupt the wizards' rule because they've become corrupt, complacent, etc.

In a 700 year period, even the most outwardly united group will find plenty of time to develop major schisms, particularly since the apparent lack of outside threats means these petty issues can be given more weight than they'd normally receive.

I'll certainly use some political maneuvering in the modern campaign...but I don't want the whole thing to turn into a Vampire: The Masquerade game. I much prefer games where the political negotiations involve axes and fireballs.

Maybe certain specializations are looked down upon -- could Divination be dangerously close to kissing divine butt? Likewise, planar travel lets young wizards go meet divine beings on their own; surely that's unacceptable.

Interesting...I had originally thought to have divination magics be the one school the wizards' hadn't discovered yet. A big weakness, and an interesting way to distinguish them from the "generic wizard". I hadn't thought much about planar travel. That and summoning spells. I'll have to think about that one.

Maybe certain theories of magic are argued so vociferiously between certain mages and their retinues that violence has resulted. This could either mean a change to how scholarly debate occurs -- maybe it's forbidden! -- or it could mean that behind the scenes sniping has replaced turning your enemy to molten glass when you disagree about the intent of a scholarly text from 1,000 years ago. Few battles are as harsh as the bloodless ones fought in the halls of academia.

I think this will be a world where debate is essentially absent. All wizards follow the will of Ogremoch to some degree or another. Only 3 or 4 actually know who's in charge. If someone does try to challenge the status quo, they're Crowned (the term for being magically enslaved).

Along those lines, if wizardry is the route to power, what does that make sorcery? It sounds like dangerous uncontrolled and unforseen element. This goes double for psionics, so woe to sorcerers and psychics of all sorts.

Sorcery is a sign that you're impure--you're probably the spawn of a demon.

Maybe they know they've been used by Ogremoch. It has been 700 years, after all. How would elementals be treated? Do the wizards feel used? And if so, what are they going to do about it?

Ultimately, only a very few wizards know about Ogremoch at all. Those that do believe they're doing their race a great service. Ogremoch has promised them a new homeland. Ever since being driven out of the Southern Jungles, the elves have had prophecies predicting that they will find their holy land "far to the north". Ogremoch has promised that when he is freed, he will help the elves conquer the continent to the north (essentially Greyhawk, where the original campaign went through Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil). Ogremoch will take the desert wasteland of Najobani as his own.

That said, I think elementals will be the only "spirits" allowed to exist. They're essentially mindless automatons, absolutely under the will of the wizards. I think fire elementals especially will be used to power various steampunk devices.

Without resurrection, raise dead and the like, mortality will be a big bugaboo for these wizards. Even elves die (in most worlds) and I'd expect the various flavors of lich to be common and popular.

Yeah, especially since elves in this world have the same lifespan as humans. While I don't ever want to run a campaign where "liches are popular," I definately agree that at least a few wizards would be pursuing immortality in this form.

Thanks for all this feedback--you have to understand, all of my "gaming friends" are involved in this campaign, so I don't have *anyone* to bounce ideas off of. This is very helpful!

Spider

 

[Nareau]

Why not have some sort of secret three-person cell organization of clerics? They could be working to bring back the good gods, who were only sealed in their home planes instead of being destroyed. The wizard-lords kill and interrogate them whenever they can, but the clerical underground is able to defend itself from most intrusion simply because of its pervasiveness and loose organization.

Great minds think alike.

In the "modern" campaign, there certainly will be a Resistance force. Indeed, that resistance force will tie into 1400 years of the campaign's history, as well as a prestige class taken by one of the PC's.

Furthermore, everyone in the campaign truly believes the gods to be dead--with the exception of the gods! The Godslayer blades actually only bound the gods in terrible prisons. The first goal of the modern campaign will be to discover this secret, free those gods, and restore their priests to some semblance of power.

Spider