+8 ECL Favored Class: Sorceror?

[Technik4]

Im doing a thorough reading of the Races of Faerun book (and am enjoying myself quite a bit) but something keeps striking me as wrong. My title is slightly misleading as tanarukk's favored class is not sorceror, but it does say:

"...a fair number are sorcerors" in reference to Tanarukks. (ECL +8)

"...there are nearly as many bards and druids..." in reference to Centaurs. (ECL +7)

Lesser offenders are Sniverblin who favor illusionists and Avariel who favor a mix of arcane and divine magic (this isnt a theurge thread...yet). Both of these races are ECL +3.

Fey'ri also strikes me as odd, though it has a variable ECL (+2 or +3, depending on which abilities you choose) its favored class IS sorceror. Can you really compete as a 4th level fey'ri sorceror against a 7th level human wizard?

What Im getting at is how does this really work? I mean ok, youve got a race with a massive ECL, due to the way the rules work, theres just no getting around that your spellcasters are going to suck.

Should there be a better base class (with requirements) that escalates spellcasting more quickly? If so, such a class would also be desireable to fighters who multi-class into wizard later. This "advanced class" (to take a line from d20 modern) would not be as useful as the base class, but it would generally give good spellcasting upgrades.

Is there a solution or should we all just keep skipping lines when we read things? Btw, this hardly only applies to the realms, a lot of monsters in the mm that get class levels added are so high in ECL value that the class levels dont get a chance to shine. Like adding a sorc level to an old dragon.

Perhaps some monsters (and races) should have special rules when adding spellcasting classes, or should racial hit-die be substitutable sometimes?

I dont know, just musing.

Technik

 

[Kahuna Burger]

What Im getting at is how does this really work? I mean ok, youve got a race with a massive ECL, due to the way the rules work, theres just no getting around that your spellcasters are going to suck.

I dwelt on this long and hard and posted mightily to the House Rules forum to no avail...

The two options I came up with were thusly -

1) continue to extrapolate 'monster classes' as SS to build on the abilities the monster has gained so far. (This could work well for succubi and other high ecl high magic monsters.) Look at what you have so far and extrapolate further boosts which fit the flavor.

2) When you add a favored spellcasting class, instead of starting at level one, you gain the new benefits a spellcaster would get at level ECL+1. Bear with me. You have an ecl 6 magic using creature which casts spells "as a sorcerer." So you add a class level of sorcerer. You get the INCREASE in spells a 7th level sorc gets over a 6th level one. There is probably some massive tweaking to be done with this idea (add some low level spells, how many times per day, etc) but thats the core of my suggestion.

Hope that helps, or at least sparks more discussion than I got last time around.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Well, yes, they suck in comparison to +0ECL level races, but only at the straight spellcasting and class abilities. That's the pay off. You get HD, which translates to BAB, saves, racial abilities etc etc etc.

So you have to choose. +x ECL characters aren't as strong at one thing as basic races, but they get a bunch of other abilities to compensate.

 

[bret]

It can make sense if instead of Favored being 'this is the class they are best at', you take it to mean that almost every member of the race dabbles in it.

The favored class doesn't incur XP penalties for big splits. If you take a +3 ECL Rogue and give it a single level of Sorcerer, that can make sense. Feather Fall, Shield, True Strike are all useful spells for a Rogue. In cases like this, it shows a tendancy of the race to dabble in a particular class rather than focus in it.

 

[Ferret]

Im doing a thorough reading of the Races of Faerun book (and am enjoying myself quite a bit) but something keeps striking me as wrong. My title is slightly misleading as tanarukk's favored class is not sorceror, but it does say:

"...a fair number are sorcerors" in reference to Tanarukks. (ECL +8)

"...there are nearly as many bards and druids..." in reference to Centaurs. (ECL +7)

Lesser offenders are Sniverblin who favor illusionists and Avariel who favor a mix of arcane and divine magic (this isnt a theurge thread...yet). Both of these races are ECL +3.

Fey'ri also strikes me as odd, though it has a variable ECL (+2 or +3, depending on which abilities you choose) its favored class IS sorceror. Can you really compete as a 4th level fey'ri sorceror against a 7th level human wizard?

What Im getting at is how does this really work? I mean ok, youve got a race with a massive ECL, due to the way the rules work, theres just no getting around that your spellcasters are going to suck.

Should there be a better base class (with requirements) that escalates spellcasting more quickly? If so, such a class would also be desireable to fighters who multi-class into wizard later. This "advanced class" (to take a line from d20 modern) would not be as useful as the base class, but it would generally give good spellcasting upgrades.

Is there a solution or should we all just keep skipping lines when we read things? Btw, this hardly only applies to the realms, a lot of monsters in the mm that get class levels added are so high in ECL value that the class levels dont get a chance to shine. Like adding a sorc level to an old dragon.

Perhaps some monsters (and races) should have special rules when adding spellcasting classes, or should racial hit-die be substitutable sometimes?

I dont know, just musing.

Technik

In Fr you can get to 20th lvl what ever race. non epic.

 

[Technik4]

Kahuna Burger:

Sorry I must have missed your thread. As far as your options:

1) Sounds tricky, and Im not even sure it would retain its class-ness. Are you fighting a sorceress succubus or just an old succubus?

2) This is along the lines I was thinking of. For instance, a tanaraukk has 5d8 of racial hit die. What if he traded his 5d8 for 5d4 and lowered his BAB to +2.5, he could still get skills as an outsider, and would still have outsider saves, but in exchange would have the spellcasting of a 5th level sorc. Keep in mind that the tanarukk is an ECL +8 race, therefore as a 10th level character (a sorceror) under this rule you would have the spellcasting of a 7th level sorc, you would still be 3 levels behind, but at least you wouldnt be 8!

(Of course another thing I found amusing about tanarukks along the lines of them having many sorcerors among them was the racial -4 Cha)


Tallarn+bret:

My above suggestion sort of falls into my argument. Adding 1 level of sorc to a fey'ri rogue is useful, but what about singe-class fey'ri sorcerors, bards, etc. At really high ECLs a single non-spellcaster level is much more useful than a spellcasting level, almost across the board.

Take an ECL +10 (lets say) that can already fly, has teleport at will, plane shift at will, and a bevy of other supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities (along with 3 racial hit die, factored into the ECL) with some nice fat ability score modifiers. It is almost universally NOT helpful to take a spellcasting level in this case. You will get level 1 spells, which racially you can easily match or supersede, and even by sticking with it you wont ever be able to challenge a human mage of your level. Whereas you take a few levels of rogue, and you act much differently as a human rogue, but you are on the same page as him. Maybe his skills are higher, but in this case your racial abilities can make up for it.

Ferret:

True, but as I said this is not just an issue in the realms. What about in greyhawk where I want to play a centaur character. I have rules to do this now, via Races of Faerun, but it still doesnt make sense for me to start a bard that is 7 levels behind other bards in terms of spellcasting and performing.

Technik

 

[Kweezil]

"...a fair number are sorcerors" in reference to Tanarukks.

That's a line I've wondered about. Tanarukk have a -4 Charisma modifier, so only a small percentage (don't have the math handy at the moment) could ever cast spells as Sorcerers.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I'd just allow them to add the caster level of their spell-like abilities to their effective caster level (but not to spells per day). In the case of monsters with no spell-like abilities, probably just adding 1/2 their HD would work.