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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kerbarian" data-source="post: 2939069" data-attributes="member: 40393">Actually, Girallon's Blessing could be pretty interesting even without the Cave Troll form.  What happens if you give 4 ape arms to, say, a Dire Lion?  Would it get 4 arms replacing its forelegs, or just 2 new arms with all 4 legs remaining intact?  I'll guess just 2 new arms.So here's an 8th-level build if Master of Many Forms isn't allowed -- straight Druid 8.[major edit:  changed to use quarterstaff]Dire Lion form, and with Girallon arms, it could wear gloves and bracers.  So keep the gauntlets of ogre strength and armbands of might.  No boots of speed, but for comparison we'll assume someone has cast haste on him.Now here's where it gets weird... say he wields a quarterstaff with the two Girallon arms.  I seem to remember something about all natural attacks being treated as secondary if you're wielding a weapon.  If that's the case, then the attacks on the charge would be:3 quarterstaff attacks (2 for BAB + 1 for haste)2 claws (secondary instead of primary)2 rakes (full attack bonus -- rake attacks always get that)1 bite (secondary)Is that correct?  Does anyone have a reference for the rules on wielding a weapon and still being able to use all the remaining natural attacks for limbs that aren't tied up wielding a weapon?  For example, could a regular Cave Troll wield a longsword in one hand and still use his other claw as a secondary natural attack without using the two-weapon fighting rules?  Anyway... proceeding on, assuming all that's correct.Shillelagh is only 1 min/level, but I'll assume that's in effect on the quarterstaff (good call Iku Rex).Attack bonus is +6 (base) + 8 (str) + 1 (haste) + 1 (magic fang/shillelagh) + 2 (charge) - 1 (size) -5 (power attack) = +12vs. an AC15 target (no Leap Attack), damage would be:((.9 + .9 + .65) * 35.5) + (.8 * 2 * 15.5) + (.9 * 2 * 15.5) + (.8 * 16.5)) * 1.05) = 161 damage.That compares to 165 for the original build or 186 for the Cave Troll + Girallon's Blessing (though the Troll could probably do better using a quarterstaff w/shillelagh).  So not half bad for staying in animal form.If you add on Brambles, the damage goes up to 179.  With Spikes instead, it's 186.  Starting to look pretty good for a Dire Lion wielding a quarterstaff and wearing full plate <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.  Speaking of which...AC won't be nearly as good.  You can still get darkleaf full plate made for a dire lion, but it would be 9150 for the nonmagical version.  So assume it's only +1 to end up at the same price.  That gives a total AC of:10 + 4 (natural) + 4 (barkskin) + 2 (dex) + 9 (armor) + 1 (haste) + 1 (ring of prot) -1 (size) - 2 (charge) = 28.Not bad, but a significant decrease.  The other major losses would be fast healing 8 (ouch), dazing blow, and the ability to speak.  Plus you can't keep Girallon's Blessing up all the time -- only 80 mins per casting.  You'd need some warning ahead of time that a fight was coming or you'd be far less effective.  You would keep full Druid casting progression, though, which is nice.Unfortunately, the unable-to-speak thing seems like an insurmountable barrier to adventuring in wild shape as a straight Druid.  Other than the Shifter's Speech class ability of the MMF, I don't see any way to communicate as a wild-shaped Druid.</blockquote>

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