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A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8105246" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Either way you look at this it's head you win tails I lose, right? I'm either expert enough I don't need the module at all for explaining a two year winter with no one seeing the sun OR I don't know what I'm talking about and... what? I need the module to tell me what two years of no one seeing the sun would do? Well, there's clearly no middle ground, nor is there a case where I both know what I'm talking about and still would like some assistance from the module writers as to how they think this pretend elf fantasy winterland has managed to survive such an obviously catastrophic event.</p><p></p><p>Sigh, this is a pretty bad argument you've put forward here. It's a false dichotomy with a layer of begging the question -- and by that I mean that there are multiple other positions that the two you've presented AND that the two you've presented both assume your conclusion -- that there's nothing to complain about with regards to Frostmaiden's premise. You've just presented case one where my presumed expertise renders anything the module writers say on the topic moot because I'll just do it better or case two where I should just shut up because I'm talking out of my butt (nice sideswipe there, by the way) about what the winter described would be like and so the author's take should be good enough. You've started at the end and just made statements that support your presumed conclusion. That it's also insulting to me seems beside the point, and probably unintentional.</p><p></p><p>Look, I like WotC, I think they do pretty good work, and I recognize I'm not in the center of the target audience when they release these products. I own half of the adventures they've released and run SKT while being able to play through my copy of CoS. I had to do a lot of work on SKT -- a lot -- to make it work for my table. That's fine. CoS was the better adventure, but it still needed a lot of attention, and I'd probably completely strip it and rebuild it if I ran it. I like to have tight themes in my campaigns, so that things drive hard, and WotC's adventures are more like the salad bar -- it might have a theme but there's still a lot of everything in there. That's fine, it's not WotC's fault, they need to cater to the widest audience. And, they're on a timetable -- they don't have forever or as long as they'd like to make these things, so it's never perfect even to what they'd want. To me, this issue with the winter's length is probably part of the need to publish -- it's a small detail that probably got changed somewhere and not revisited. Happens. I can fix it, but that doesn't mean that I can't point it out or that doing so is slamming WotC. Feedback helps both WotC (a tiny little bit) and other people that are going to run the module (sometimes quite a lot). There's a reason the "Fixing XXX" threads for WotC adventures both do well here at ENW and also on various blogs and in the DM's Guild. Because there are a lot of possible takes, and WotC isn't perfect. The need to protect this adventure from any criticism of it's premise is weird to me. Pushing back on the WotC sucks is cool, go for it, but the adventure premise? That's a tad strange.</p><p></p><p>If I were to break it down Pascal's Wager style, it would look like this:</p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td></td><td>[USER=6879661]@TheSword[/USER]</td><td>[USER=16814]@Ovinomancer[/USER]</td></tr><tr><td>Winter lasts 2+ years, not much explanation</td><td><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></td><td><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite3" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":(" /></td></tr><tr><td>Winter has lasted less time, or explanation</td><td><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></td><td><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></td></tr></table><p></p><p>Why, then, the pushback if you don't care if winter lasts two years or if it could be something else? I haven't seen you, or anyone, actually make an argument as to why the two year winter ups the stakes, or makes things better, or has some deeper and more important meaning. It's just a reflexive argument that this detail shouldn't matter.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8105246, member: 16814"] Either way you look at this it's head you win tails I lose, right? I'm either expert enough I don't need the module at all for explaining a two year winter with no one seeing the sun OR I don't know what I'm talking about and... what? I need the module to tell me what two years of no one seeing the sun would do? Well, there's clearly no middle ground, nor is there a case where I both know what I'm talking about and still would like some assistance from the module writers as to how they think this pretend elf fantasy winterland has managed to survive such an obviously catastrophic event. Sigh, this is a pretty bad argument you've put forward here. It's a false dichotomy with a layer of begging the question -- and by that I mean that there are multiple other positions that the two you've presented AND that the two you've presented both assume your conclusion -- that there's nothing to complain about with regards to Frostmaiden's premise. You've just presented case one where my presumed expertise renders anything the module writers say on the topic moot because I'll just do it better or case two where I should just shut up because I'm talking out of my butt (nice sideswipe there, by the way) about what the winter described would be like and so the author's take should be good enough. You've started at the end and just made statements that support your presumed conclusion. That it's also insulting to me seems beside the point, and probably unintentional. Look, I like WotC, I think they do pretty good work, and I recognize I'm not in the center of the target audience when they release these products. I own half of the adventures they've released and run SKT while being able to play through my copy of CoS. I had to do a lot of work on SKT -- a lot -- to make it work for my table. That's fine. CoS was the better adventure, but it still needed a lot of attention, and I'd probably completely strip it and rebuild it if I ran it. I like to have tight themes in my campaigns, so that things drive hard, and WotC's adventures are more like the salad bar -- it might have a theme but there's still a lot of everything in there. That's fine, it's not WotC's fault, they need to cater to the widest audience. And, they're on a timetable -- they don't have forever or as long as they'd like to make these things, so it's never perfect even to what they'd want. To me, this issue with the winter's length is probably part of the need to publish -- it's a small detail that probably got changed somewhere and not revisited. Happens. I can fix it, but that doesn't mean that I can't point it out or that doing so is slamming WotC. Feedback helps both WotC (a tiny little bit) and other people that are going to run the module (sometimes quite a lot). There's a reason the "Fixing XXX" threads for WotC adventures both do well here at ENW and also on various blogs and in the DM's Guild. Because there are a lot of possible takes, and WotC isn't perfect. The need to protect this adventure from any criticism of it's premise is weird to me. Pushing back on the WotC sucks is cool, go for it, but the adventure premise? That's a tad strange. If I were to break it down Pascal's Wager style, it would look like this: [TABLE] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][USER=6879661]@TheSword[/USER][/TD] [TD][USER=16814]@Ovinomancer[/USER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Winter lasts 2+ years, not much explanation[/TD] [TD]:D[/TD] [TD]:([/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Winter has lasted less time, or explanation[/TD] [TD]:D[/TD] [TD]:D[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Why, then, the pushback if you don't care if winter lasts two years or if it could be something else? I haven't seen you, or anyone, actually make an argument as to why the two year winter ups the stakes, or makes things better, or has some deeper and more important meaning. It's just a reflexive argument that this detail shouldn't matter. [/QUOTE]
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A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology
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