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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6672218" data-attributes="member: 42582">Not really.Gygax, in his DMG, makes the following comments about adjudicating discovery of secret doors (p 97):They con possibly be sensed or detected by characters who are actively concentrating on such activity, or their possible location may be discovered by tapping (though the hollow place could be another passage or room beyond which has no portal in the hollow-sounding surface). Discovery does not mean that access to the door mechanism has been discovered, however. Checking requires a very thorough examination of the possible secret door area. You may use either of two methods to allow discovery of the mechanism which operates the portal: 1. You may designate probability by a linear curve . . . each character being allowed to roll each turn in checking a 10' X 10' area.  . . . 2. You may have the discovery of the existence of the secret door enable player characters to attempt to operate it by actual manipulation, i.e. the players concerned give instructions as to how they will have their characters attempt to make it function: "Turn the wall sconce.", "Slide it left.", "Press the small protrusion, and see if it pivots.", "Pull the chain." It is quite acceptable to have a mixture of methods of discovering the operation of secret door.That is pretty close to "say yes or roll the dice" - if the players declare the correct action for their PCs, the GM says yes; otherwise the dice are rolled.How does "say yes or roll the dice" abandon that premise? The events of the game world are really happening as far as the PCs are concerned. Not rolling dice in order to determine their occurence doesn't make them less "real". For instance, spellcasting in D&D almost never requires a dice roll (in 3E there are exceptions around casting spells in stormy weather and the like), but that doesn't make it "unreal" from the perspective of the PCs.Why? In the real world I don't fail at most of the things I attempt. Why should the experience of the PCs in the gameworld be different from that?What makes you say that? Tunnels & Trolls states a goal in its 5th ed (1979, from memory): the goal is to delve dungeons and gain levels and treasure without dying.Here is Gygax on the goal of AD&D (PHB, pp 7, 8, 109):As a role player, you become Falstaff the fighter. . . . You act out the game as this character . . . You interact with your fellow role players . . . The Dungeon Master will act the parts of "everyone else", and will present to you a variety of new characters to talk with, drink with, gamble with, adventure with, and often fight with! Each of you will become an artful thespian as time goes by - and you will acquire gold, magic items, and great renown as you become Falstaff the Invincible! . . . The game is ideally for three or more adult players: one player must serve as the Dungeon Master, the shaper of the fantasy milieu, the "world" in which all action will take place. The other participants become adventurers by creating characters to explore the fantastic world and face all of its challenges - monsters, magic, and unnamed menaces. . . . By successfully meeting the challenges posed, they gain experience and move upwards in power, just as actual playing experience really increases playing skill. . . . Skilled players always make a point of knowing what they are doing, i.e. they have an objective. They co-operate - particularly at lower levels or at higher ones when they must face some particularly stiff challenge - in order to gain their ends. Superior players will not fight everything they meet, for they realize that wit is as good a weapon as the sword or the spell. When weakened by wounds, or nearly out of spells and vital equipment, a clever party will seek to leave the dungeons in order to rearm themselves. (He who runs away lives to fight another day.) When faced with a difficult situation, skilled players will not attempt endless variations on the same theme; when they find the method of problem solving fails to work, they begin to devise other possible solutions. . . . Superior play makes the game more enjoyable for all participants, DM and players alike. It allows more actual playing time. It makes play more interesting. The DM will have to respond to superior ploy by extending himself or herself to pose bigger and better problems for the party to solve. This in turn means more enjoyment for the players. Successful play means long-lived characters, characters who will steadily, if not rapidly, gain levels. You will find that such characters become like old friends; they become almost real. Characters with stories related about their exploits - be they cleverly wrought gains or narrow escapes- bring a sense of pride and accomplishment to their players, and each new success adds to the luster and fame thus engendered. The DM will likewise revel in telling of such exploits . . . just as surely as he or she will not enjoy stories which constantly relate the poor play of his or her group! Some characters will meet their doom, some will eventually retire in favor of a new character of a different class and/or alignment; but playing well is a reward unto itself, and old characters are often remembered with fondness and pride as well. If you believe that ADVANCED DUNGEONS 8 DRAGONS is a game worth playing, you will certainly find it doubly so if you play well.In other words, the goal of AD&D play, at least as intended by its author, is to play well, with skill, so as to ensure the success of your PC in overcoming the challenges put in his/her way by the GM - the levels gained by the PC are thereby a proxy for the demonstrated skill of the player.Other, more recent, editions of D&D have tended to have different goals of play. To the extent that these goals have sometimes been obscure (or obscured) I think that gets in the way of establishing clear rules and play procedures.</blockquote>

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