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A case where the 'can try everything' dogma could be a problem
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6685655" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>A post on another thread seemed relevant to this element of the discussion on this thread. Here it is (with apologies to aramis erak for cross-thread posting):</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It seems to me that what underpins the "roll-play" vs "roleplay" debate is an assumption about the relationship between rolling the dice and the story/thematic/dramatic aims of play - namely, that when the dice are being rolled those other elements of play are not at issue.</p><p></p><p>As you (Tony Vargas) say, the debate was framed as one between AD&D and WW, but it is not a debate between their <em>texts</em>. It's a debate between <em>players</em>. If you look at the AD&D 2nd ed PHB, you can see that it is already on the "roleplay" side of the debate - it disparages the idea of action resolution by rolling dice at every opportunity (eg it presents combat resolution as the first step on a slippery slope to a "hack-and-slash" campaign), and the whole system encourages the GM to override dice rolls in the interests of "the story", just the same as the Storyteller books.</p><p></p><p>What gave the debate genuine currency is that there werre some AD&D players who were using 2nd ed AD&D to run a game that ignored those parts of the books and was pretty similar to how many people ran 1st ed AD&D, and B/X as well - namely, the sort of "token roleplay as a veneer over skirmish wargaming" that [MENTION=2656]Aenghus[/MENTION] has described upthread.</p><p></p><p>The "breakthrough" in RPG design that makes the "roll-play" vs "roleplay" debate the irrelevance it deserves to be is identifying mechanical systems that support rather than cut across the story/thematic/dramatic aims of play. That support can be a matter of degree, but my own experience suggests that three main aspects of a system are relevant:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">(1) A capacity for players to flag their story interests/inclinations to the GM by way of PC building;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">(2) Resolution mechanics that allow those flagged interests/inclinations to be engaged in play without the outcomes turning simply on GM fiat;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">(3) A capacity, within the system, to make the consequences of that engagement matter to future play.</p><p></p><p>When I reflect on (1) and (2), I see a connection to a different group of 80s/90s anti-AD&D RPGers, namely, the players of the more sim systems like RQ, RM, HERO etc. The rhetoric of those players tended to be around <em>realism</em> rather than <em>aesthetic sophistication</em>, but I think the former was actually, quite often, being used as a proxy for the latter.</p><p></p><p>PC build in those systems does allow flagging story interests/inclination, because (i) players can build very detailed and focused PCs who have clear roles in the game and in the gameworld beyond fighting and (ii) the mechanics of those games, in however rudimentary a fashion, permit the GM to engage those aspects of a PC. In my own Rolemaster campaign, for instance, more than one PC was built whose primary specialty was stealth/social, with combat something of an afterthought.</p><p></p><p>In Gygax's AD&D you could get an approximation to this sort of thing if you had an all-thief party, and Oriental Adventures permitted something similar on the social front (via its honour rules which interacted with its rules for generating PC families and senseis which interacted with its rules for "contests" that are about showing off one's skill rather than looting a dungeon). But otherwise in AD&D the mechanics systematically pull play back towards non-thematically-driven exploration (secret door rolls, trap rolls etc), combat and looting. Even the very detailed social rules in Gygax's DMG put the biggest emphasis on combat morale, combat modifiers to loyalty, and gifts of treasure - so the loyalty system itself pushes play back towards dungeon exploration. Which is fine for Gygaxian play, but cuts across attempts to use the system for other sorts of play.</p><p></p><p>The biggest weakness in the classic sim games, from the point of view of my (1) to (3) above, is in (3). They tend not to have ways of carrying consequences forward into future play. (CoC is an exception, with its SAN mechanics.) Even in 4e, you can see this - healing surge depletion has to carry a very big part of this mechanical load, which means either (i) a resolute emphasis on physical challenges, or (ii) giving healing surges an ever-expanding function as an all-purpose mechanical resource, which is how many experienced 4e GMs and hackers take the game.</p><p></p><p>Systems like HeroQuest Revised (with its pass/fail cycle for setting DCs), or Burning Wheel (with "fail forward" and "let it ride" constraints upon narrating the fiction) take (3) to a whole new level compared to some of the classic RPGs. At which point the "roll-play" vs "roleplay" contrast has been left completely behind. So far from being a distraction from story/theme/drama, rolling the dice carries the bulk of the weight of play, determining the fate of these protagonists within a story context that is driven by their dramatic needs, without the requirement of a GM using force to stop the "roll-playing" getting in the way of that story.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6685655, member: 42582"] A post on another thread seemed relevant to this element of the discussion on this thread. Here it is (with apologies to aramis erak for cross-thread posting): It seems to me that what underpins the "roll-play" vs "roleplay" debate is an assumption about the relationship between rolling the dice and the story/thematic/dramatic aims of play - namely, that when the dice are being rolled those other elements of play are not at issue. As you (Tony Vargas) say, the debate was framed as one between AD&D and WW, but it is not a debate between their [I]texts[/I]. It's a debate between [I]players[/I]. If you look at the AD&D 2nd ed PHB, you can see that it is already on the "roleplay" side of the debate - it disparages the idea of action resolution by rolling dice at every opportunity (eg it presents combat resolution as the first step on a slippery slope to a "hack-and-slash" campaign), and the whole system encourages the GM to override dice rolls in the interests of "the story", just the same as the Storyteller books. What gave the debate genuine currency is that there werre some AD&D players who were using 2nd ed AD&D to run a game that ignored those parts of the books and was pretty similar to how many people ran 1st ed AD&D, and B/X as well - namely, the sort of "token roleplay as a veneer over skirmish wargaming" that [MENTION=2656]Aenghus[/MENTION] has described upthread. The "breakthrough" in RPG design that makes the "roll-play" vs "roleplay" debate the irrelevance it deserves to be is identifying mechanical systems that support rather than cut across the story/thematic/dramatic aims of play. That support can be a matter of degree, but my own experience suggests that three main aspects of a system are relevant: [indent](1) A capacity for players to flag their story interests/inclinations to the GM by way of PC building; (2) Resolution mechanics that allow those flagged interests/inclinations to be engaged in play without the outcomes turning simply on GM fiat; (3) A capacity, within the system, to make the consequences of that engagement matter to future play.[/indent] When I reflect on (1) and (2), I see a connection to a different group of 80s/90s anti-AD&D RPGers, namely, the players of the more sim systems like RQ, RM, HERO etc. The rhetoric of those players tended to be around [I]realism[/I] rather than [I]aesthetic sophistication[/I], but I think the former was actually, quite often, being used as a proxy for the latter. PC build in those systems does allow flagging story interests/inclination, because (i) players can build very detailed and focused PCs who have clear roles in the game and in the gameworld beyond fighting and (ii) the mechanics of those games, in however rudimentary a fashion, permit the GM to engage those aspects of a PC. In my own Rolemaster campaign, for instance, more than one PC was built whose primary specialty was stealth/social, with combat something of an afterthought. In Gygax's AD&D you could get an approximation to this sort of thing if you had an all-thief party, and Oriental Adventures permitted something similar on the social front (via its honour rules which interacted with its rules for generating PC families and senseis which interacted with its rules for "contests" that are about showing off one's skill rather than looting a dungeon). But otherwise in AD&D the mechanics systematically pull play back towards non-thematically-driven exploration (secret door rolls, trap rolls etc), combat and looting. Even the very detailed social rules in Gygax's DMG put the biggest emphasis on combat morale, combat modifiers to loyalty, and gifts of treasure - so the loyalty system itself pushes play back towards dungeon exploration. Which is fine for Gygaxian play, but cuts across attempts to use the system for other sorts of play. The biggest weakness in the classic sim games, from the point of view of my (1) to (3) above, is in (3). They tend not to have ways of carrying consequences forward into future play. (CoC is an exception, with its SAN mechanics.) Even in 4e, you can see this - healing surge depletion has to carry a very big part of this mechanical load, which means either (i) a resolute emphasis on physical challenges, or (ii) giving healing surges an ever-expanding function as an all-purpose mechanical resource, which is how many experienced 4e GMs and hackers take the game. Systems like HeroQuest Revised (with its pass/fail cycle for setting DCs), or Burning Wheel (with "fail forward" and "let it ride" constraints upon narrating the fiction) take (3) to a whole new level compared to some of the classic RPGs. At which point the "roll-play" vs "roleplay" contrast has been left completely behind. So far from being a distraction from story/theme/drama, rolling the dice carries the bulk of the weight of play, determining the fate of these protagonists within a story context that is driven by their dramatic needs, without the requirement of a GM using force to stop the "roll-playing" getting in the way of that story. [/QUOTE]
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