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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Harm" data-source="post: 3301931" data-attributes="member: 49173">They would have extremely weak mages and rogued in that game then.    Sound Lance will be breaking 50 damage off maximize at level 7 for straight clerics and wizards.  Specialist type wizards can probably do it a level or two earlier.  Using empowered rod which at 8th can be bought with starting cash will add a further 4d8 to sound lance 3 times per day.  At 8th level, power attack will add +16 damage at the cost of 8 to-hit which means a fighter with 20 strength, double weapon focus and a +3 weapon will have +8 to hit and will be missing anything with more than 18AC (which is everything) more than half the time.  0.25% of the time they'll crit (assuming it's not undead, construct etc.) and might break 50 if they roll well on their base damage.   Never seen a monster die from failing their massive damage fort save.  I've seen plenty of monsters die from the massive amounts of damage a cleric rams into them though.</blockquote>