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General Tabletop Discussion
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A critical analysis of 2024's revised classes
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9821816" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Except it <em>doesn't</em>. That's precisely my point. It <em>won't</em> be "fixed" by that, because it's always valuable to defect, in the Prisoner's Dilemma way of describing it.</p><p></p><p>There's never any value to being the ideas guy when someone else acts on it. Hence, creative ideas are punished, while acting out as soon as possible is at least <em>potentially</em> rewarded. When one path offers literally no value to you but still includes peril, while the other includes more peril but at least a <em>chance</em> of reward, the "rational" choice is always to pursue the possible reward even if you're more likely to fail than succeed.</p><p></p><p>Like think about the usual Prisoner's Dilemma. You have two suspects who both robbed a bank, but the case against them isn't very strong. Without a plea bargain, the best they can do is resisting arrest, say two years in prison for each suspect. Buuuut...if one of them talks, then they'll be offered clemency, no prison time at all, <em>unless</em> both talk. So you get a cost chart like this...</p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td style='width: 33.3333%'></td><td style='width: 33.3333%'>A stays quiet</td><td style='width: 33.3333%'>A defects</td></tr><tr><td style='width: 33.3333%'>B stays quiet</td><td style='width: 33.3333%'>Both 2 years</td><td style='width: 33.3333%'>A 0 yr, B 8 yrs</td></tr><tr><td style='width: 33.3333%'>B defects</td><td style='width: 33.3333%'>A 8 yrs, B 0 yr</td><td style='width: 33.3333%'>Both 5 years</td></tr></table><p></p><p>If you assume the other person would never defect, you can get 0 years prison time by defecting, which is better than 2 years. And if you assume the other person has already defected, then you can cut your own sentence by also defecting, <em>and</em> prevent them getting off scott free for their betrayal. Even though this is the worst outcome for all parties, where they collectively spend more time in prison than any other option, it is also the one and only equilibrium for this situation.</p><p></p><p>The exact same applies to ideas vs action in the situation you've described. Both players work on ideas? 0% profit, X% peril. Beat the other player to acting on their idea? Y% profit, (X+Z)% peril. As long as that peril percentage isn't 100%, it's <em>always</em> better to defect, because the former station results in no payout but inevitable peril eventually. And then if both go all action no thought, it becomes (Y-W)% profit (split between the two), but <em>less than</em> (X+Z)% peril, because you're at least partially dividing the effort, and thus the risk, even if the difference is very small.</p><p></p><p>Hence, no, it <em>won't</em> be fixed over time. The reward structure actually encourages this behavior to get <em>worse</em>, not better.</p><p></p><p>Unless, of course, there are more rewards you haven't told us about which actually are given for sometimes taking one for the team and being an ideas guy that helps others come up with a great plan, coordinates, and facilitates, even though that means screwing yourself out of any actual rewards for your contributions.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9821816, member: 6790260"] Except it [I]doesn't[/I]. That's precisely my point. It [I]won't[/I] be "fixed" by that, because it's always valuable to defect, in the Prisoner's Dilemma way of describing it. There's never any value to being the ideas guy when someone else acts on it. Hence, creative ideas are punished, while acting out as soon as possible is at least [I]potentially[/I] rewarded. When one path offers literally no value to you but still includes peril, while the other includes more peril but at least a [I]chance[/I] of reward, the "rational" choice is always to pursue the possible reward even if you're more likely to fail than succeed. Like think about the usual Prisoner's Dilemma. You have two suspects who both robbed a bank, but the case against them isn't very strong. Without a plea bargain, the best they can do is resisting arrest, say two years in prison for each suspect. Buuuut...if one of them talks, then they'll be offered clemency, no prison time at all, [I]unless[/I] both talk. So you get a cost chart like this... [TABLE width="100%"] [TR] [td width="33.3333%"][/td] [td width="33.3333%"]A stays quiet[/td][td width="33.3333%"]A defects[/td] [/TR] [TR] [td width="33.3333%"]B stays quiet[/td][td width="33.3333%"]Both 2 years[/td][td width="33.3333%"]A 0 yr, B 8 yrs[/td] [/TR] [TR] [td width="33.3333%"]B defects[/td][td width="33.3333%"]A 8 yrs, B 0 yr[/td][td width="33.3333%"]Both 5 years[/td] [/TR] [/TABLE] If you assume the other person would never defect, you can get 0 years prison time by defecting, which is better than 2 years. And if you assume the other person has already defected, then you can cut your own sentence by also defecting, [I]and[/I] prevent them getting off scott free for their betrayal. Even though this is the worst outcome for all parties, where they collectively spend more time in prison than any other option, it is also the one and only equilibrium for this situation. The exact same applies to ideas vs action in the situation you've described. Both players work on ideas? 0% profit, X% peril. Beat the other player to acting on their idea? Y% profit, (X+Z)% peril. As long as that peril percentage isn't 100%, it's [I]always[/I] better to defect, because the former station results in no payout but inevitable peril eventually. And then if both go all action no thought, it becomes (Y-W)% profit (split between the two), but [I]less than[/I] (X+Z)% peril, because you're at least partially dividing the effort, and thus the risk, even if the difference is very small. Hence, no, it [I]won't[/I] be fixed over time. The reward structure actually encourages this behavior to get [I]worse[/I], not better. Unless, of course, there are more rewards you haven't told us about which actually are given for sometimes taking one for the team and being an ideas guy that helps others come up with a great plan, coordinates, and facilitates, even though that means screwing yourself out of any actual rewards for your contributions. [/QUOTE]
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