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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8669468" data-attributes="member: 87792">Yes. They are very good at a relatively narrow range of situations. For example that +16.5 bonus to persuasion isn't going to help much e.g. with negotiating with the local orc tribes in the way that someone with a much lower persuasion check but who speaks orcish would. They are great if you have a DM who lets you look at your sheet and simply say &quot;I roll persuasion&quot; in any social situation - and who only has you places where being a noble would be respected. Meanwhile how would a half-decent level 13 spellcaster handle that &quot;doesn't speak orcish&quot; problem? What's the spell called? Ah, yes. Tongues.So no. Not top tier. Mid tier - really good at what they do well and with numbers that compete with a bard on those skills at that level. But skill numbers aren't everything and they just don't have the spells or abilities to provide the set-up that's often needed.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8669468, member: 87792"] Yes. They are very good at a relatively narrow range of situations. For example that +16.5 bonus to persuasion isn't going to help much e.g. with negotiating with the local orc tribes in the way that someone with a much lower persuasion check but who [I]speaks orcish[/I] would. They are great if you have a DM who lets you look at your sheet and simply say "I roll persuasion" in any social situation - and who only has you places where being a noble would be respected. Meanwhile how would a half-decent level 13 spellcaster handle that "doesn't speak orcish" problem? What's the spell called? Ah, yes. [I]Tongues.[/I] So no. Not top tier. Mid tier - really good at what they do well and with numbers that compete with a bard on those skills at that level. But skill numbers aren't everything and they just don't have the spells or abilities to provide the set-up that's often needed. [/QUOTE]

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