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A critique and review of the Fighter class
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<blockquote data-quote="Willie the Duck" data-source="post: 8673749" data-attributes="member: 6799660"><p>I don't have a serious horse in this race (or at least it is divergent from most I've seen here*). I have watched this and the other threads like it here, as well as on a half dozen or so other gaming-centric boards and social media outlets. The one constant is that both (or really all) sides of the conflict believe that they are a beleaguered underdog, constantly harangued and mistreated, that the other side is some variation on 'loud voices' that are abusive and consistently attacking them for having the audacity of having a differing opinion (and saying, in effect, 'you're the one who should go play something else or otherwise have your needs not met'). And, let's be clear, there will be individuals on the other side that will give them evidence towards that effect. Likewise, there will be individuals on their side (or themselves) who do exactly the same, and that's often overlooked (perhaps along with the people on the other side who are being cordial and cooperative and trying to find common ground). Individual threads and boards might have majority positions, but honestly I'd be hard pressed to remember a time on this subject*** where I've seen the acidic behavior lopsided 2:1 or greater. You are right that D&D is for everyone, but I really don't see one or the other side in this discussion being the one that is clearly peeing in the other's cornflakes (as usual, it seems that everyone is giving as good as hey are getting).</p><p><span style="font-size: 9px"><em>I do think non-casters have a serious problem (including fighters for OOC activity), but a lot of that should be addressed by 0) Preemptive point: manage/prevent the 5-minute workday, 1) making the non-spell and non-combat resolution pathways more expansive and defined</em> (and giving fighters more access to those), not pretending that magic items are optional (or at least discuss the ramifications thereof better), and most controversially that there really ought to be two paths to take when entering tier 3: one where noncasters stay completely mundane and casters never get some of the gameplay-changing effects like adding high powered creatures to their team or swapping out creature abilities or walls and cages that cannot be defeated by damage; and another where casters can do this but non-casters then can do the epic acts of non-wizardsly heroes of myth and legend like Beowulf, Gilgamesh, Orpheus , and Fionn mac Cumhaill.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px">**with lots of specifics that probably deserve their own thread</span></p><p><span style="font-size: 9px">***some topics like '4E, good or bad?' or 'TSR-era vs. WotC-era', or 'Gary vs. Dave', yeah, individual boards can be blisteringly one-sided there.</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>In think that threads all too often end up being referendums on 'who is right' rather than solving an actual problem. It would be interesting (I guess X months from now, after anyone would remember I said this) if someone made a thread where they stated, "Advice thread: I am not interested in the broader consensus on whether fighters overall need help. In <u>my</u> games, they do. I want to fix this. I'd love advice, including using house rules others might have in mind as fixes to the fighters, if they believe they need it (again, this is not the place to relitigate if that is needed for anywhere but my game)." and see what happens. I suspect people would eventually not help themselves, but before then, I suspect there could be a lot of analysis on potential solutions.</p><p><span style="font-size: 9px">Counterexample: I distinctly remember a thread where Oofta did nothing but state that he did not think there was a problem, that he understood that others had different experiences, and that he was fine with people disagreeing with him; and people could not leave that alone. </span></p><p></p><p></p><p>Personally, I think clerics (more than all the classes, which could have used this too) could have used a good hard developer think about what they really wanted them to be. I get that no one was happy with being the HP batteries for the rest of the team and people didn't like needing a cleric (that oftentimes no one wanted to play) in every party. I also understand why they were trying to make 5e appeal to the TSR era crowd and make things all look superficially as much like their iconic versions as they could. However, serving both those masters creates contradiction that perhaps could have used more finessing. </p><p></p><p>Maybe make the 'remove affliction' spells (and maybe the dead raising ones as well, barring revivify for obvious reasons) could all have been part of the cleric ritual spells, so they could all be grabbed with a feat. Or they could all be upcasts of a single 1st level spell, so that you could get them with one of the spell-grabbing feats or abilities (Magic Initiate modified to let you use your own slots to cast, like the newer, similar, feats. </p><p></p><p>I could also see them being automatically known and prepared by all clerics, so that then you didn't have them eating into your preparations (so being the healbot, when needed, wouldn't feel like a groin-kick). Also, if all clerics knew them as a matter of course, you could then more easily implement your sphere idea and have individual spell lists by cleric-type, while still having all clerics have these in common. Making sure other classes can handle the 'remove affliction' and 'regain hp' stuff is great, but having a type of cleric that couldn't? That would be... well, I remember playing with Spheres and Priests of Specific Mythos in 2e -- no one played anything without the healing sphere*. Having these as a commonality would help with buy-in (kinda like the All sphere and Lesser Divination school back in 2e). </p><p><span style="font-size: 9px">*and they also often cajoled the DM for Necromancy sphere as well for free, since 'no one would pick a sphere with two spells, but man do we need to be able to raise someone...' </span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Willie the Duck, post: 8673749, member: 6799660"] I don't have a serious horse in this race (or at least it is divergent from most I've seen here*). I have watched this and the other threads like it here, as well as on a half dozen or so other gaming-centric boards and social media outlets. The one constant is that both (or really all) sides of the conflict believe that they are a beleaguered underdog, constantly harangued and mistreated, that the other side is some variation on 'loud voices' that are abusive and consistently attacking them for having the audacity of having a differing opinion (and saying, in effect, 'you're the one who should go play something else or otherwise have your needs not met'). And, let's be clear, there will be individuals on the other side that will give them evidence towards that effect. Likewise, there will be individuals on their side (or themselves) who do exactly the same, and that's often overlooked (perhaps along with the people on the other side who are being cordial and cooperative and trying to find common ground). Individual threads and boards might have majority positions, but honestly I'd be hard pressed to remember a time on this subject*** where I've seen the acidic behavior lopsided 2:1 or greater. You are right that D&D is for everyone, but I really don't see one or the other side in this discussion being the one that is clearly peeing in the other's cornflakes (as usual, it seems that everyone is giving as good as hey are getting). [SIZE=1][I]I do think non-casters have a serious problem (including fighters for OOC activity), but a lot of that should be addressed by 0) Preemptive point: manage/prevent the 5-minute workday, 1) making the non-spell and non-combat resolution pathways more expansive and defined[/I] (and giving fighters more access to those), not pretending that magic items are optional (or at least discuss the ramifications thereof better), and most controversially that there really ought to be two paths to take when entering tier 3: one where noncasters stay completely mundane and casters never get some of the gameplay-changing effects like adding high powered creatures to their team or swapping out creature abilities or walls and cages that cannot be defeated by damage; and another where casters can do this but non-casters then can do the epic acts of non-wizardsly heroes of myth and legend like Beowulf, Gilgamesh, Orpheus , and Fionn mac Cumhaill. **with lots of specifics that probably deserve their own thread ***some topics like '4E, good or bad?' or 'TSR-era vs. WotC-era', or 'Gary vs. Dave', yeah, individual boards can be blisteringly one-sided there.[/SIZE] In think that threads all too often end up being referendums on 'who is right' rather than solving an actual problem. It would be interesting (I guess X months from now, after anyone would remember I said this) if someone made a thread where they stated, "Advice thread: I am not interested in the broader consensus on whether fighters overall need help. In [U]my[/U] games, they do. I want to fix this. I'd love advice, including using house rules others might have in mind as fixes to the fighters, if they believe they need it (again, this is not the place to relitigate if that is needed for anywhere but my game)." and see what happens. I suspect people would eventually not help themselves, but before then, I suspect there could be a lot of analysis on potential solutions. [SIZE=1]Counterexample: I distinctly remember a thread where Oofta did nothing but state that he did not think there was a problem, that he understood that others had different experiences, and that he was fine with people disagreeing with him; and people could not leave that alone. [/SIZE] Personally, I think clerics (more than all the classes, which could have used this too) could have used a good hard developer think about what they really wanted them to be. I get that no one was happy with being the HP batteries for the rest of the team and people didn't like needing a cleric (that oftentimes no one wanted to play) in every party. I also understand why they were trying to make 5e appeal to the TSR era crowd and make things all look superficially as much like their iconic versions as they could. However, serving both those masters creates contradiction that perhaps could have used more finessing. Maybe make the 'remove affliction' spells (and maybe the dead raising ones as well, barring revivify for obvious reasons) could all have been part of the cleric ritual spells, so they could all be grabbed with a feat. Or they could all be upcasts of a single 1st level spell, so that you could get them with one of the spell-grabbing feats or abilities (Magic Initiate modified to let you use your own slots to cast, like the newer, similar, feats. I could also see them being automatically known and prepared by all clerics, so that then you didn't have them eating into your preparations (so being the healbot, when needed, wouldn't feel like a groin-kick). Also, if all clerics knew them as a matter of course, you could then more easily implement your sphere idea and have individual spell lists by cleric-type, while still having all clerics have these in common. Making sure other classes can handle the 'remove affliction' and 'regain hp' stuff is great, but having a type of cleric that couldn't? That would be... well, I remember playing with Spheres and Priests of Specific Mythos in 2e -- no one played anything without the healing sphere*. Having these as a commonality would help with buy-in (kinda like the All sphere and Lesser Divination school back in 2e). [SIZE=1]*and they also often cajoled the DM for Necromancy sphere as well for free, since 'no one would pick a sphere with two spells, but man do we need to be able to raise someone...' [/SIZE] [/QUOTE]
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A critique and review of the Fighter class
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