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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8677757" data-attributes="member: 87792">The thing is that the Tier 1 fighter is as good a hoplite or other fighter as you would expect from a tier 1 character. And perfectly capable of kicking the snot out of the non-martials, especially at levels 1-2 (with the exception of the Moon Druid at levels 2-4). If you are playing a tier 1 character you do not expect them to be hypercompetent - and a lot of caster concepts won't come together until tier 2 either.At levels 1-2 the wizard and sorcerer are cowering. They have about 3-4 spells per day (counting Arcane Recovery and Metamagic as an extra spell) and an AC of about 10-12 vs the 16-18 of the fighter. They also have far fewer hit points - and firebolt does 1d10 damage, while a duelist with a spear is doing 1d6+5. Meanwhile Second Wind and Action Surge are each worth a first level spell per short rest at this tier. Even the cleric, despite a solid AC, is behind. And literally the only problem with the spear and shield hoplite is that it's not min-maxed and there are better fighters. That and the apprentice levels are apprentice levels.At levels 3-4 the 7-8 1st and 2nd level spells bring the sorcerer and wizard into the game. But a good fighter subclass (i.e. not like the Champion) can keep up as well as having a vastly better base chassis. And the fighter's lead in combat is enough over the non-martials and especially the arcane casters in tier 1 that it doesn't really matter that they're not great out of combat. And the archetypes are mostly fine for most low level fighters.The fighter does what it claims from level 1 to level 11. And a lot of archetypes either seriously overlap or are tweaks of each other. But yes the fighters need more. And none of them are great tactical fighters.The key problem is that to cover the higher level expressions of an archetype you need more detail. The last new ability a fighter gets from their class is either Indomitable at level 9 or More Attacks Than Anyone Else at level 11 (which makes a fine tier 2 capstone one level late).</blockquote>

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