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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercule" data-source="post: 7139233" data-attributes="member: 5100">I would strongly recommend reading some material for Werewolf: the Apocalypse and both Mage: the Ascension and Mage: the Awakening. They aren't dead on with what you're doing, but they very much explore ideas of the spirit world being strongly influenced by what happens in the "real" world. The entire premise of Mage: the Ascension is that human belief shapes reality.To your actual questions, I first need to ask a question: Do the demons know of their origin or are they just as ignorant as humans? If they're ignorant, then I see absolutely no reason to make big changes -- maybe wait until you run across something specific that doesn't seem to fit, but they're going to manifest based on expectations and that manifestation will further solidify expectations. After a couple millennia, that form may not be what it started as, but it simply is. If the demons have a clue, that doesn't mean their form (abilities) will be any different, they may just resent certain... shortcomings and try to change public opinion.I'm not really familiar with Qlippoth in D&D. A quick search turned up some Pathfinder info, so I'll run with that. Maybe the difference between the demons and the qlippoth is that qlippoth know what the demons don't -- their origin. Along with that, the qlippoth haven't been nailed down as much, so their abilities are a bit more subjective, as is their form. There's power in naming a thing and/or cataloging it. Qlippoth gain power by being less studied. A demon represents a certain, specific type of sin/evil; at most, a demon is going to represent a broad category of sin. Whether the naming of the evil or demon happened first is irrelevant. They simply are associated, now. A qlippoth, on the other hand, still gets to play boogie man and is the unknown evil. That gives them tremendous power because they get to draw on incoherent fear, which is vague, but runs deep. Should a qlippoth get too tied to an idea (or have that idea imprinted on it), it loses that power as it morphs into a demon lord.The obyriths, on the other hand might be exactly what they appear to be -- evil that predates the known universe. Again, I wouldn't change stats unless you had a specific, concrete reason. They add a bit more interest in your model, though. What sort of conceptual evil could be so strong as to outlast the consciousness that spawned them?Actually, now that I reread your post, I just realized that I missed that you were saying that these guys aren't "durable" beyond the summoning -- I think. I'd initially thought you meant that the Abyss, etc. were all created by mortal belief. I still think a lot of the above ideas could add some value, so I won't delete them. I'll add some additional notes, though.I still say that you shouldn't change stats w/o a good reason. If you have no planes, anything that can shift has some obvious limitations. Beyond that, I'd just let it be.Based on that, I'm going to flip demons and qlippoth.I do like the idea, that qlippoth don't know they don't exist. Demons have this knowledge, and struggle against it. Obyriths actually do persist, but I'm not sure where they would -- maybe there's enough belief that the universe is starting to hollow out an Abyss.In this model, there's a question of what the critters "remember". Qlippoth aren't mindless, so where do they think they come from? I'd go with them being created with memories of the Abyss, but it's all a bunch of fluff that doesn't matter. Or, qlippoth act as sort of "expert systems" that are extremely capable of doing the things they're built to do, but don't have actual sentience.Demons are like qlippoth, but they have the knowledge  of what they are. Basically, they now have a "hard drive" but "power off" when not in use. Knowing what they are, they're always looking for a way to return and/or stay for a while, so that they actually live. A qlippoth who gains true self-awareness might become a demon -- or that might be a terrifying moment as the weight of oblivion suddenly slams down on the beast.Obyrith are the next step up. They get to "run in the background". What they do with their time and where they spend it is an open question. Maybe they can affect things or maybe they just get to stew and plot.</blockquote>

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