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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5989248" data-attributes="member: 87792">So we have the entire class based system.  I've also brought up the NPCs and how that changes the whole purpose of the rules and the relationship the PCs have to the world.  Now for a third.  The saving throws - where 4e manages to be a fusion of AD&D and the vastly different 3e system.  In AD&D Saving Throws are precisely that.  Saving - how to get out of things.  The saving throw against a (non-crippling) spell cast by a caster is always the same whether it is Dominate, Glitterdust, Fireball, or Stinking Cloud - and it's a reflection about the PC's actions.  Wizards get better saving throws against spells (and staffs - which are always a single point easier to save against) reflecting that they are wizards and have minor counterspells and protections.  The spells the wizard has more trouble saving against are the poison/petrification/polymorph/paralysis/death - the instant effects that prevent them gasping out words and gesturing with minor magic.  The difficulty is a consequence of the effect.In 3e, "Saving Throws" are, in fact, defences.  The simple question is "Is the spell powerful enough to crush the enemy's will or affect their body".  One part of the skill of being a wizard is knowing to pick (and how to pick) the low save of the target and preparing a spread of spells for that purpose.  So a well played conjurer will often pack Grease (reflex or even balance), Glitterdust (will), and Stinking Cloud (fort) - and the DC is a consequence of the caster.The conceptual change from "Can they do something about the attack"? to "Is the attack strong enough to overwhelm the target"? is massive.  And was just another part of the stealth buffing of 3e casters.4e split the difference here.  It kept 3e style defences and allowing the attacker control (this time with the right person rolling) but added back actual saving throws (although in a less sophisticated way than AD&D).The more I think about how 3.X works the more it reminds me of GURPS.  I'm not saying this is a bad thing - I've more books for GURPS than any other system.  But Simulationist, Universal but with strong flavouring, detailed, point-buy, needs watching carefully.  It's roughly the same assumptions.  AD&D was gamist, playstyle-focussed, broad brush, and class based.  And 4e is likewise.</blockquote>

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