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<blockquote data-quote="Emerikol" data-source="post: 7456005" data-attributes="member: 6698278">And they don't in my game either because you know humans are playing those characters and they don't always make the optimal choice.&nbsp; You always seem to twist my words into a strawman.&nbsp; The characters though are trying to act optimally.&nbsp; This is definitely a strawman.&nbsp; I'm talking about general play in the game.&nbsp; Behavior that looks a whole lot like real life.&nbsp; I do have a few with lots of rules expertise and I have others with much less.&nbsp; Either way they are striving to do at the moment of decision the best thing for the character just like a character would really do.Sure. You are coming across as condescending.&nbsp; I should have said literary trope.&nbsp; Whatever.&nbsp; Again this sideline is just a distraction from the conversation.Defeat is a lot of things.&nbsp; Death is one and it's always there in a world in my games.&nbsp; But failing to rescue someone, having to retreat due to a superior enemy, springing a trap (small defeat), or the bad guys just plain getting away with the treasure are all defeats.&nbsp; Failure to achieve the goal.&nbsp; Every one of those things though not perfect are representative of things characters know in game.&nbsp; They know the big sword tends to do more than the small dagger.&nbsp; They know some people are better at avoiding spell damage than others.&nbsp; They all know that hit points represent their overall well being and nearness to death.&nbsp; My characters all know that.&nbsp; That is in game knowledge every bit of it.&nbsp; I think maybe I've triggered you which is not my intention.&nbsp; This thread is getting off track.&nbsp; I don't agree with what you think is metagame which to me is not.&nbsp; Just realize that for me it is not.&nbsp; I think it's not for others too in many cases but again that is unimportant to the questions I'm asking.And like I keep saying, I don't like that.&nbsp; It takes me from being a character to playing a piece in a game.&nbsp; Immersion if you will.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Emerikol, post: 7456005, member: 6698278"] And they don't in my game either because you know humans are playing those characters and they don't always make the optimal choice. You always seem to twist my words into a strawman. The characters though are trying to act optimally. This is definitely a strawman. I'm talking about general play in the game. Behavior that looks a whole lot like real life. I do have a few with lots of rules expertise and I have others with much less. Either way they are striving to do at the moment of decision the best thing for the character just like a character would really do. Sure. You are coming across as condescending. I should have said literary trope. Whatever. Again this sideline is just a distraction from the conversation. Defeat is a lot of things. Death is one and it's always there in a world in my games. But failing to rescue someone, having to retreat due to a superior enemy, springing a trap (small defeat), or the bad guys just plain getting away with the treasure are all defeats. Failure to achieve the goal. Every one of those things though not perfect are representative of things characters know in game. They know the big sword tends to do more than the small dagger. They know some people are better at avoiding spell damage than others. They all know that hit points represent their overall well being and nearness to death. My characters all know that. That is in game knowledge every bit of it. I think maybe I've triggered you which is not my intention. This thread is getting off track. I don't agree with what you think is metagame which to me is not. Just realize that for me it is not. I think it's not for others too in many cases but again that is unimportant to the questions I'm asking. And like I keep saying, I don't like that. It takes me from being a character to playing a piece in a game. Immersion if you will. [/QUOTE]

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