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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 7456182" data-attributes="member: 177">I am trying to take your words as they are stated.&nbsp; And I'm saying that's the unrealistic bit.&nbsp; Real people don't always even try to act optimally, much less achieve it.For example - many real world people smoke tobacco.&nbsp; The number of people born in the US after 1970 who do not know that smoking is a really bad idea is vanishingly small.&nbsp; But about 17% of adults still smoke - they are not even trying to be optimal. People do all sort of suboptimal things, not just because they don't have all the information, not just because their logical abilities are limited, but because humans have conflicting drives.&nbsp; They don't want just one thing, to which an optimal route is available.&nbsp; Humans often want conflicting, mutually exclusive things, such that there's no optimal route to what they want.&nbsp; And sometimes, they act sub-optimally just because!It is past midnight, and I have a job interview tomorrow, and I'm here discussing how to pretend to be elves!&nbsp; Not optimal!&nbsp; Insomnia keeps me from having access to anything even vaguely optimal at the moment.&nbsp; So, I just pick something, until something better comes along.I can't win for losing.&nbsp; In another discussion, I try to convince someone that death isn't the only source of suspense in a game, and they were having none of it.&nbsp; Here, I can't get someone to accept death as the clearest consequence for screwing up in D&amp;D.&nbsp; Make up your minds, people! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue&nbsp; &nbsp; :p"&nbsp; data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Do they look up in books during a fight which sword does more damage?&nbsp; 'Cause that's something players do.With respect, nothing you can say can &quot;trigger&quot; me.&nbsp; You can't moderate boards like this as long as I have and be &quot;triggered&quot; by piddling things like differences of opinion on how to pretend to be elves.And that word is wildly overused.&nbsp; Let's reserve it for people who have PTSD, like it was intended, pleaseOkay, actually, if we do want to get this back to something you care about, it is really an important bit.&nbsp; We cannot advise you on how to achieve no-metagame when your conception of what constitutes metagame is different than ours.&nbsp; If there's one thing here we should *not* discard, it is this.&nbsp; Yoru conception of what constitutes metagame is *central* to the issue.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 7456182, member: 177"] I am trying to take your words as they are stated. And I'm saying that's the unrealistic bit. Real people don't always even try to act optimally, much less achieve it. For example - many real world people smoke tobacco. The number of people born in the US after 1970 who do not know that smoking is a really bad idea is vanishingly small. But about 17% of adults still smoke - they are not even trying to be optimal. People do all sort of suboptimal things, not just because they don't have all the information, not just because their logical abilities are limited, but because humans have conflicting drives. They don't want just one thing, to which an optimal route is available. Humans often want conflicting, mutually exclusive things, such that there's no optimal route to what they want. And sometimes, they act sub-optimally [i]just because[/i]! It is past midnight, and I have a job interview tomorrow, and I'm here discussing how to pretend to be elves! Not optimal! Insomnia keeps me from having access to anything even vaguely optimal at the moment. So, I just pick something, until something better comes along. I can't win for losing. In another discussion, I try to convince someone that death isn't the only source of suspense in a game, and they were having none of it. Here, I can't get someone to accept death as the clearest consequence for screwing up in D&D. Make up your minds, people! :p Do they look up in books during a fight which sword does more damage? 'Cause that's something players do. With respect, nothing you can say can "trigger" me. You can't moderate boards like this as long as I have and be "triggered" by piddling things like differences of opinion on how to pretend to be elves. And that word is wildly overused. Let's reserve it for people who have PTSD, like it was intended, please Okay, actually, if we do want to get this back to something you care about, it is really an important bit. We cannot advise you on how to achieve no-metagame [i]when your conception of what constitutes metagame is different than ours[/i]. If there's one thing here we should *not* discard, it is this. Yoru conception of what constitutes metagame is *central* to the issue. [/QUOTE]

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