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General Tabletop Discussion
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A discussion of metagame concepts in game design
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<blockquote data-quote="Emerikol" data-source="post: 7461592" data-attributes="member: 6698278"><p>I think your mistake is you are confusing metagame with realistic. Hit points are undoubtedly an unrealistic abstraction even when used as I use them. They are though the reality of the D&D world. Hit points do represent how close your character is to death. That is real in game knowledge. So a player being told he takes 14 damage and the player then conveying that knowledge to the character (This would be no different than a DM describing a serene lake) is not metagame. </p><p></p><p>I don't doubt in those days there were people wanting more realistic games. So a wound system could be added or not added. Added wounds though would not in any way make the game more or less metagame. It's about players doing things that affect the game world which the character could not do himself nor even imagine doing himself.</p><p></p><p>And I am not going to say that some unrealism doesn't bother me. It's all a matter of degrees. I'm just saying this thread is not about realism.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No. If you understood my preferences you'd be doing what I am doing. It's clear from all those examples that this division in the hobby was not at all about metagaming. It was about realism and maybe to a degree simulationism if you want to go there. </p><p></p><p>The real key here is what does the character know. You will claim that your characters don't know about a lot of things that I will claim my characters know about. My characters know the perhaps unrealistic abstractions of D&D. They know what HP represents. They wouldn't use the term HP but they'd know their general well being. They know how hard it is for them to be hit. They know this stuff. It is highly abstracted so maybe some don't like abstractions. I like them in some instances but not in others. None of it is about metagaming though.</p><p></p><p>I'd probably separate RQ/GURPS/HERO from D&D by the term low or high fantasy. Another example is WOIN. It is on the GURPS end of the spectrum but it has metagame elements. You can be a highly realistic game (not saying WOIN is highly realistic) and still be metagame. It's about player/character view and how you derive your pleasure from the game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Emerikol, post: 7461592, member: 6698278"] I think your mistake is you are confusing metagame with realistic. Hit points are undoubtedly an unrealistic abstraction even when used as I use them. They are though the reality of the D&D world. Hit points do represent how close your character is to death. That is real in game knowledge. So a player being told he takes 14 damage and the player then conveying that knowledge to the character (This would be no different than a DM describing a serene lake) is not metagame. I don't doubt in those days there were people wanting more realistic games. So a wound system could be added or not added. Added wounds though would not in any way make the game more or less metagame. It's about players doing things that affect the game world which the character could not do himself nor even imagine doing himself. And I am not going to say that some unrealism doesn't bother me. It's all a matter of degrees. I'm just saying this thread is not about realism. No. If you understood my preferences you'd be doing what I am doing. It's clear from all those examples that this division in the hobby was not at all about metagaming. It was about realism and maybe to a degree simulationism if you want to go there. The real key here is what does the character know. You will claim that your characters don't know about a lot of things that I will claim my characters know about. My characters know the perhaps unrealistic abstractions of D&D. They know what HP represents. They wouldn't use the term HP but they'd know their general well being. They know how hard it is for them to be hit. They know this stuff. It is highly abstracted so maybe some don't like abstractions. I like them in some instances but not in others. None of it is about metagaming though. I'd probably separate RQ/GURPS/HERO from D&D by the term low or high fantasy. Another example is WOIN. It is on the GURPS end of the spectrum but it has metagame elements. You can be a highly realistic game (not saying WOIN is highly realistic) and still be metagame. It's about player/character view and how you derive your pleasure from the game. [/QUOTE]
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