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General Tabletop Discussion
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A discussion of metagame concepts in game design
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7463306" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Why not? An AD&D monk can control when s/he goes into a cataleptic trance that feigns death, ro when s/he recovers lost hit points by way of self-healing. A 3E or 5e barbarian can control when s/he gets really angry. Why can't a 5e fighter control when s/he gets his/her second wind?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think there is some tension here. You don't seem to regard "moderately unrealistic" hit points as magic, yet you deny they're metagame. I don't understand on what basis you are insisting that second wind must be something different.</p><p></p><p>I think you mean "players" in that last sentence - the character isn't surmising anything beyond what s/he already knows, that the NPC in question can cast spells on the seventh scroll.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>On this point I think that [MENTION=6698278]Emerikol[/MENTION] is obviously right. Why would anyone use a grading system that can't distinguish between the character who can cast only Magic Missile, and the character who can cast Fireball? Especially when the ranking of capabilities is a repeated and rigid phenomenon across all the wizards in the land?</p><p></p><p>As soon as you treat spell levels and slots as real, ingame phenomena, then the wizards in their schools will be able to establish a ranking system that every wizard (at least until 9th level) sits within, and that correlates exactly to the levels set out in the PHB.</p><p></p><p>How do you handle wights, wraiths and other level-draining undead, then? Or magic item creation in 3E?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Following [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]'s reasoning, choosing equipment in D&D also has a strong metagame aspect to it: iron spikes, 10' poles, Find Traps, etc - the logic of all these is established by the D&D dungeoneering framework. Again, layering a veneer of infiction rationale over this doesn't change the underlying logic.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7463306, member: 42582"] Why not? An AD&D monk can control when s/he goes into a cataleptic trance that feigns death, ro when s/he recovers lost hit points by way of self-healing. A 3E or 5e barbarian can control when s/he gets really angry. Why can't a 5e fighter control when s/he gets his/her second wind? I think there is some tension here. You don't seem to regard "moderately unrealistic" hit points as magic, yet you deny they're metagame. I don't understand on what basis you are insisting that second wind must be something different. I think you mean "players" in that last sentence - the character isn't surmising anything beyond what s/he already knows, that the NPC in question can cast spells on the seventh scroll. On this point I think that [MENTION=6698278]Emerikol[/MENTION] is obviously right. Why would anyone use a grading system that can't distinguish between the character who can cast only Magic Missile, and the character who can cast Fireball? Especially when the ranking of capabilities is a repeated and rigid phenomenon across all the wizards in the land? As soon as you treat spell levels and slots as real, ingame phenomena, then the wizards in their schools will be able to establish a ranking system that every wizard (at least until 9th level) sits within, and that correlates exactly to the levels set out in the PHB. How do you handle wights, wraiths and other level-draining undead, then? Or magic item creation in 3E? Following [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION]'s reasoning, choosing equipment in D&D also has a strong metagame aspect to it: iron spikes, 10' poles, Find Traps, etc - the logic of all these is established by the D&D dungeoneering framework. Again, layering a veneer of infiction rationale over this doesn't change the underlying logic. [/QUOTE]
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