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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7470547" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Gygax said nothing about "approximation of real world sciences". He indicated some areas of study for sages, which are approximations of real world mediaeval universities and scholarship.</p><p></p><p>Do sages who study astronomy in D&D engage with contemporary theories of stellar formation, with Ptolemaic theories of spheres around the earth, or with the ideas set out in Spelljammer? Gygax doesn't tell us, but the one astronomical example he provides - of someone flying to the moon on a winged horse - suggests more like the lattermost! It cetainly isn't consistent with the first.</p><p></p><p>But there is no such baseline assumption! There is a baseline assumption that common sense things - eg animal husbandry - work much as they do in our world. But there is no such assumption when it comes to scientific theories that aren't evident to common sense, weren't known to mediaeval or even early modern people, and aren't discussed in the rulebooks.</p><p></p><p>In D&D, a character can travel to the Elemental Plane of Earth, collect a diamond, and bring it back to earth. Is it distinguishable from an earthly diamond of the same size and shape? I've never seen anything to suggest that it is. Is it made of carbon atoms? Presumably not, given that we're talking about the Elemental Plane of Earth rather than the Elemental Plane of Carbon! But if it is indistinguishable from the earthly one, then presumably that is not made of carbon either!</p><p></p><p>Any number of similar examples can be given. Eg a vampire can suck the "life force" from a human being! Whatever the hell that is, it's not something that Darwin ever theorised! Or this one: fire is an element, which means that combustion is the release of an element from within the burned thing; which is much closer to the pholgiston theory of combustion than to the true theory that combustion is oxidation.</p><p></p><p>OK, that's your prerogative. But I've never read a D&D rulebook that gave that advice (the closest thing I can think of is Gygax's discussion of ecology in his DMG, and that doesn't involve science at all, but pseudo-science about the sun in the gameworld being a diferent colour from that on earth). Nor do I recall any D&D book that suggested that the default is real world science beyond the remit of common sense.</p><p></p><p>Which ones? We've established that terminal velocity is different; that the only discussion of the earth's atmosphere and moon is different; that the composition of diamonds is different; that the elements are different; that combustion is different; that life is something connected to a supernatural "life force" rather than something that consiss in, or perhaps supervenes on, certain biochemical processes. </p><p></p><p>What is left besides common sense tropes? - which are an "approximation of physics and other sciences" only in the sense that they are among the observations that are the starting point for scientific enquiry.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7470547, member: 42582"] Gygax said nothing about "approximation of real world sciences". He indicated some areas of study for sages, which are approximations of real world mediaeval universities and scholarship. Do sages who study astronomy in D&D engage with contemporary theories of stellar formation, with Ptolemaic theories of spheres around the earth, or with the ideas set out in Spelljammer? Gygax doesn't tell us, but the one astronomical example he provides - of someone flying to the moon on a winged horse - suggests more like the lattermost! It cetainly isn't consistent with the first. But there is no such baseline assumption! There is a baseline assumption that common sense things - eg animal husbandry - work much as they do in our world. But there is no such assumption when it comes to scientific theories that aren't evident to common sense, weren't known to mediaeval or even early modern people, and aren't discussed in the rulebooks. In D&D, a character can travel to the Elemental Plane of Earth, collect a diamond, and bring it back to earth. Is it distinguishable from an earthly diamond of the same size and shape? I've never seen anything to suggest that it is. Is it made of carbon atoms? Presumably not, given that we're talking about the Elemental Plane of Earth rather than the Elemental Plane of Carbon! But if it is indistinguishable from the earthly one, then presumably that is not made of carbon either! Any number of similar examples can be given. Eg a vampire can suck the "life force" from a human being! Whatever the hell that is, it's not something that Darwin ever theorised! Or this one: fire is an element, which means that combustion is the release of an element from within the burned thing; which is much closer to the pholgiston theory of combustion than to the true theory that combustion is oxidation. OK, that's your prerogative. But I've never read a D&D rulebook that gave that advice (the closest thing I can think of is Gygax's discussion of ecology in his DMG, and that doesn't involve science at all, but pseudo-science about the sun in the gameworld being a diferent colour from that on earth). Nor do I recall any D&D book that suggested that the default is real world science beyond the remit of common sense. Which ones? We've established that terminal velocity is different; that the only discussion of the earth's atmosphere and moon is different; that the composition of diamonds is different; that the elements are different; that combustion is different; that life is something connected to a supernatural "life force" rather than something that consiss in, or perhaps supervenes on, certain biochemical processes. What is left besides common sense tropes? - which are an "approximation of physics and other sciences" only in the sense that they are among the observations that are the starting point for scientific enquiry. [/QUOTE]
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