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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Iosue" data-source="post: 5987839" data-attributes="member: 6680772">I have to disagree with Exploder Wizard and Scylla.  I think they are taking the argument too far.IMO, the goals of say, Rule of DM players and Rule of Rules players are the same.  They want to envision what their characters might do and then execute it.  Neither necessarily wants to control success.  It's a question of process, not results.Rule of DM players (in general) desire a certain freeform process that, for them, allows them to innovate and improvise, be it as player or DM.  They don't want to spend a lot of time on system/rule mastery.  Rule of Rules (in general) players desire a consistent, stable process that, for them, allows them to make informed action decisions without a lot of intangible variability.Since I harped on TwinBahamut's examples, it's only fair to provide my own:Rule of DMDM: This huge, 7 1/2 foot ogre is standing just inside the door 30 feet away, swinging his club.Player: I shoot across the room and hurl myself on his back.DM (improvising): Okay, roll under your Dex score.Player: 12.DM: Okay, you're hanging on his back.  You hamper his movement, and he's trying to swipe you off.  (DM decides the ogre gets -2 to attack rolls.)Rule of RulesDM: You see it's an ogre.Player (surveys minis on map, mentally counts squares): He's close enough.  I run over and jump on his back, hitting him with the pommel of my sword and grabbing around his neck.  Stranglehold: Encounter, vs. AC, 2d8+20 damage, and he's Dazed until the end of my next turn.DM: Okay.  Make your roll.  (Everyone knows that Dazed means the ogre only gets one action, can't take immediate or opportunity actions, grants CA, and can't flank.)Player: 12, +20 is 32.  Damage is (rolls)...35.DM: You've banged him up and he's Dazed.  (Puts a little Dazed keyring on the ogre mini.)It's the same basic thing: player thinks what they want to do, says it, and rolls to succeed.  The difference is the process.  In the first example the DM makes the call on what the player needs to roll, and what the effects of success are.  In the second, everything has already been worked out, so the DM merely makes sure the player isn't misusing the rule, and notes the damage and condition of the monster.For some folks, the quick and easy way of the former keeps them in the game.  They don't need to know what effects their grab on the ogre will specifically do.  That's one aspect of the fun.  For other folks, that uncertainty is a hobgoblin of the mind, hampering their enjoyment.For some folks, the codified and transparent workings of the game keep them in the game.  It helps them think of plans and tactics down the line.  Another player realizes they can play off of the ogre's new condition.  There's no uncertainty about how things work; only in whether it will work or not.  For other players, the extra time taken to make clear a power not everyone's familiar with takes them out of the game, or they feel constrained from trying improvise, because everything's so clearly codified.Some folks are like me, and feel comfortable in either situation.</blockquote>

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