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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 308718" data-attributes="member: 2011">The Sense Motive type of skill would be useful any time you talk to someone in town, not just when someone is trying to bluff you. Say a gate guard is directing you to a given inn. He is not trying to bluff you per se, but he may get a kickback from that inn, so noticing that he seems fairly insistent about it might be important.And, I think Spot and Listen are totally critical. You are in the wilderness. You are on guard duty. The Rogue is asleep. It suddenly gets quiet. That's a Listening check to notice that it is getting quiet and understand that it could mean that something is creeping up on camp. People confuse Listening rolls with always hearing faint noises. Even a Rogue with a +25 to Listen cannot hear a noise that is too faint to hear. But, the difference is that he will notice faint noises and be able to make a good guess as to what they might mean.My entire group makes anywhere from 4 to 20 spot or listen checks per session. It is NOT just the Rogues, (and to a lesser extent Bards, and Rangers) that should be good at this. That is a poor design on the part of WotC.But, disagreeing is part of discussing things.The only reason I feel that they should not be skills per se is that they should be things automatically acquired over time due to experience, just like BAB.Non-observant Adventurers is an oxymoron (i.e. they should be dead), but that is how the game is designed."Ah yuk, yuk, I'm a 20th level Wizard, but I wouldn't know it if a 12 year old pickpocket took my spell component pouch until I got home. Yuk, yuk."Sigh. That's a poor design IMO.That's why I use the +1 to Spot on levels 1, 4, 7, etc. type of house rules. Rogues (and anyone else for that matter) can still buy even more skill in it if they wish, but everyone has at least some ability to learn over time.</blockquote>

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