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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kae'Yoss" data-source="post: 309268" data-attributes="member: 4134">If he is fairly insistent, there should be a sense motive check against a set dc, not against his bluff check, unless he lies about the advantages of the inn.You would need a listen check, but the DC should be fairly low (if it has to be taken at all) since that is fairly obvious. After all, I could call for an intelligence check to actually understand that it could mean danger, but I wouldn't do that (and that's 100% no part of the listen check!)for me, "notice" and "hear" a faint noice is the same. either you are aware of it or not. With a higher bonus to listen you will probably be better at identifying the noise Why should they all be good at this? because they all die if they aren't? Surely not!I could also argue that everyone should be able to notice traps (and I mean the ones with the higher DC's, the ones you need the rogue's trap ability to notice), not just the rogue. I could notice "but we ain't got a rogue in the party, and if there is a trap which kills us if we won't notice it, we'll surely die". Well, it's sad but the way it works. You can't have everything.Surely it is.They look like skills, the work like skills, they are skills. I can also argue that every rogue must be good at handling traps, at hiding, moving silently and getting things that belong to them. So every rogue just gets +1 per level on search, disable device, hide, move silently and pick pocket. But that isn't so! As I said: you can't have anything. I thing it's a nice idea to grant more skill points per level (+2 or so), but no skills for free. Why? If he is tough enough, he can handle the backstab! and after that, he can mash the wee bastard thief to pulp.But if you make all the characters observant, thieves have a much harder time in combat. Considering that they already need every advantage they can grab to persevere in a fight, people who wanted to play their rogue assassin- or swashbuckler-stile would just punish themselves!I understand. Instead, you want something along the lines of "Ah yuk, yuk, I'm a 20th-level Wizard, I am an total expert at arcane knowledge, the planes of existance, geography, religion, spellcraft, and alchemy, and still even those idiots who took 20 levels of rogue have a hard time stealing my component pouch. I'm invincible. Yuk, yuk."right?Sigh, that's a poor character design IMO. Noone forces you to put all the skill points (a 20th-level Wiz should have about 140 of those) to max out three different knowledges, scry, spellcraft, concentration and alchemy. you can spare the occasional points to put them into spot, listen, and sense motive, and no 12-year old pick pocked would get an item off you you are patting like every 30 seconds. But if you truly want to excell at all of these, you can't pay that much attention to mundane things like other people or the environment!</blockquote>That's why I use the +1 to Spot on levels 1, 4, 7, etc. type of house rules. Rogues (and anyone else for that matter) can still buy even more skill in it if they wish, but everyone has at least some ability to learn over time.[/QUOTE]They can all learn that over time. By spending the occasional skill points into that, if he doesn't mind that he hasn't maxed-out his "usual" skills.Your average rogue20 could have a real hard time saving against the wizard20's wail of the banshee: the rogue rolls maybe 1d20+14(6 from level + 2 from con + 6 from magic/feats )   against dc  31(10 + 9 for spell level + 4 from greater spell focus + 8 for intelligence) and needs at least a 17. That's a chance of 20%. even the wizard 13 with his finger of death and dc 25(10 +7 for spell level + 2 for spell focus + 6 for int) has a fifty/fifty - chance to kill that rogue who is 7 levels above! Why, then, shouldn't a rogue13 be able to take something from that wizard20, especially considering that the wizard won't drop dead at once if he lost it, with a good chance?BTW: My Fighter5/Wizard1/Bladesinger10 has Spot+6, Listen+3 and Sense Motive+1, and you know what: he's still alive (OK, they had to raise him last thursday, but that was because he rolled a natural one twice in a row: first a fort save against horrid wilting, second against the resulting fort save cause of massive damage)[/QUOTE]

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