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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 310264" data-attributes="member: 2011">Absolutely, it should be a set DC. But, since nobody ever has enough points for Sense Motive, does that mean that the DC should always be less than 20? Otherwise, they will never make the roll and why bother with it. Or, if there is a Rogue in the group, should the DC be higher sometimes?They are two different things. Practically every character in a party should be able to hear the same faint noises. The difference is in either skill (WotC method), or experience and skill (my method) to both pay attention to it and recognize that it might mean something.How many times in real life does someone say “Hear that?”? Practically every time, most people can hear it, it is just the observant people who actually notice it in the first place. The Listen skill is about noticing things, not improving your ears.They should be good due to experience. Doing the same job (adventuring) day in and day out should automatically increase characters ability to recognize danger signs, look in the appropriate places for problems, etc.The problem in this discussion is that you do not consider Spot and Listen and potentially Sense Motive as skills that adventurers would learn automatically over time. I do.Just like a woodsman would learn over time to not sleep in the rain or to not stay out in the sun too long or to seek high ground when dark clouds come in so that he does not get caught in a flash flood, adventurers would also learn to look behind doors, look above doorways, listen carefully at closed doors, etc.The game is designed to have certain classes be blind as bats and dumb as posts. Idiocy.Yes and if you argued that, I would agree with you. The “only a Rogue with this level of Searching can find this level of traps” is a stupid rule. So is the Find Traps spell. Oh, you mean like swinging a weapon?Just because WotC did not make weapon fighting a skill does not mean that it isn’t one.However, the game works better with the BAB concept.The game would also work better with the BPB concept (Base Perception Bonus). In fact, if 3E had come out with this, I doubt you would be arguing against it.The problem is this.As an advancing character, I gain more hit points. I gain more BAB. I gain better saves. I gain more feats.And yes, I gain more skill.However, these are cross class skills we are talking about here for most classes.So in a lot of cases, even if I max out Spot and Listen (ignoring Sense Motive completely), I have to use up 4 skill points per level. A lot of classes do not get 4 skill points per level. And, even after maxing it out, it is STILL very difficult to notice anything. Even if I try my hardest to be the best I can be at it.So, some classes are double whammied. They CANNOT buy enough skill to seriously make a difference, especially at higher level AND they do not have enough points to max out these skills, even if they wanted to.So, two of the most important skills in the game are effectively beyond the reach of most characters. Yes, you can take a rank or two of it here and there, but typically enough to not make a difference, especially at higher level.So, although the group of adventurers have been doing this for years, they are still so myopic and get ambushed and surprised all of the time, just because the game system has a stupid design flaw in it.Logically, it does not make sense that seasoned adventurers would be non-observant. However, the cross class and low skill point features of the game design FORCE that to be the case, even if a given character decides to max out these types of skills, it isn’t enough and it takes up most or all of his skill points.It’s just a stupid design period. IMO. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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