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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Norfleet" data-source="post: 1132660" data-attributes="member: 11581">For many skills, they're only good when you have full ranks....and a large number of levels of those full ranks.For instance, Concentration: Let's consider a very basic task: Defensive casting of a first level spell: DC16.This means you will not be able to perform this without a +15 Concentration. Since as of 3E, mostly everyone thinks Constitution is important, let's say our wizard has a 14 Con, +2. That means he won't be able to do this until 10th level....when he'll be trying to do this with 5th level spells. In effect, concentration is useless unless maxed out, and even when maxed out, doesn't close the DC gap for many, many levels.Spellcraft: DC16 to identify a 1st level spell under normal conditions. Say you're talking a wizard, +4 Int mod, which means he'll need 11 ranks. He won't see that until level 8, by which time he'll be trying to cast L4 spells, L1 spells being very old hat. The DC/Skills gap won't close until well into the high levels, when he's casting L6 spells(ID DC: 21) requiring a +20, has a +5 Int mod, and therefore needs 15 ranks, requiring him to be L12.Spot/Listen: DC27 to detect a cloaked L10 Rogue with a +4 Dex mod operating under T-10. Since you can also use T-10, you'll be required to have a +17 to detect him. If we figure you are NOT a cleric, and there probably do not have much in the way of a positive Wis mod, that'll require you to be level 14....if you max it out, and it's a class skill. If you ARE a cleric, well, Spot and Listen aren't class skills for you, so you're screwed, period. With those skills cross-class, you'll be lucky to detect an oompah band at 30 yards.Clearly, these are examples of skills, where the DCs are determined by formulaic rules, and NOT by DM fiat, which are useless without maxed ranks, and even then, not useful until a fairly high level.These types of skills are clearly identified by a DC that starts with a large flat base modifier, and grows with level of user. Oftentimes, you also won't be allowed to take-10 on them, forcing you to make up that gap entirely with skill ranks....IF the skill DCs grow slower than allowed max ranks. If you're not running with the big dogs, stay on the porch.Skills without such DC behaviors CAN be pursued at less than full ranks....but if you do, you're going to shoot yourself in the foot with regard to skills like the above. Of course, because of this, you've turned a skill like the above into a complete writeoff.....which does, helpfully, free up a lot of points for you to acquire "easy" skills with. Too bad you had to write off what was likely an important class feature to do it.</blockquote>

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