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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrankTrollman" data-source="post: 1148431" data-attributes="member: 14225">I've been using the 3.5 Ranger, Fighter, Paladin, and Barbarian in these examples - and using all of the 3.5 updates to previous books, where available. As of this time, Sword and Fist is still "official" and will continue to be the 3.5 source for everything in it which has not been reprinted.That means that as of this time the Duelist has been nerfed to complete uselessness - but the Knight Protector and OotBI are still good to go in a 3.5 environment.That's relevent to a 3.5 discussion, because it uses the 3.5 rules exclusively.I've got an even better idea: I've already posted some builds. Hows about you put forward your builds without equipment, then we can compare two characters fulfilling the same roll in a party with the same equipment.Comparing characters with different equipment, especially at high level, is more a test of min/maxxing the equipment than the character. It is obviously fruitless to compare characters with different equipment. So here's the plan:You put forth some characters with just class features, stats, hit points, saves, and skills. Then I'll do exactly the same - possibly cribbing off of one of the builds I already posted, and possibly making a new one if you decide to "mix it up" by taking a character into a radically different direction than the ones I've already posted. I can get more with a character with no more than 2 levels of Fighter than you can with a "fighter".Guaranteed.That's inane. A single classed character is a "build". It's a build that looks like this:FighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterFighterAnd that's a build. The fact that it is an inferior build is exactly the problem that I am addressing. That levels should be inherently equivalent is a design goal which is mandated by the concept of open multiclassing. So if a single classed character is getting less at higher character levels than a multiclassed character is getting - that's a flaw in the system. It means that either you get too much for the low levels of classes or too little for the late levels. So if you admit that a multiclassed character is "better" than a single classed one - you've already admitted that the power imbalance I am complaining of is a reality.And look... you just admitted that. Which means I'm right and we can all go home.-Frank</blockquote>

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