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Message: <blockquote data-quote="reapersaurus" data-source="post: 1153532" data-attributes="member: 1194">KD - no, I'm not sure, but I think so.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Let me paraphrase you again: "The PHB feats are of an adequate power level." Fair?This is further enforced by your statement that you think Well, I think it's been shown that the comparison is on average FIVE spells that are gained, vs ONE feat.What skews the comparison even more is that each time the mage gains those 5 spells, they are geometrically more powerful. Of course, the Ftr's feat power stays almost the same, other than feat chains.House Rule idea!Mages should have to learn spell-chains to get to their more powerful spells.They shouldn't be able to dip right in and get Improved Invisibility (Greater Invis now?) unless they have spent the resources to learn multiple spells leading up to it (i.e. Silent Image, Invisibility, Invisibility Sphere).Back to KarinsDad - So no, I think it's fairly simple to conclude that 1 feat (especially a PHB FTR feat) is not worth 5 spells of increasing power and flexibility.Can you argue that 1 feat IS worth those 5 spells? I'm interested in the counter-argument. Keep in mind that if your main reason is because spells are limited, and feats aren't, you have to take into account how often mages don't run out of spells in a day (which I'm positive is the VAST majority of the time), and also take into account that many of the best feats have even more limited uses per day than a mage's spells (Power Critical, Extra Smite and others are ONE time per day).Now, on to your points about a mage being more likely to die at lower levels, and also being less powerful at low level.It may look that way at first glance, but I'm not sure if that's actually the case.Just because mage's have less HP, doesn't necessarily mean they die more often. Of course, the only proof of this would be to take an accurate census of players and DM's (which is too tough to do), but I doubt if mages actually die more often than any other class (if I had to guess which class dies the most from reading these boards for years, it would be the MONK).There are reasons why the mages don't die.* They WILL have higher DEX than most fighter-types, so they will more than likely go first in combat. * They more than likely are in a defended position, so they won't be killed in the 1st round.* Everyone knows they are fragile, so everyone's actions are made with that in mind.* Their Familiar is an extra 50% of HP's, just sitting there waiting if they want to use (many people forget this).* From 1st level on, look at the spell list, and see the spells which could single-handedly or in combination make it so the mage survives, or will be more powerful than the Ftr-type.I'll thrown out a few: Shield, Grease, Obscuring Mist, True Strike (able to hit targets the Ftr's can't, thereby saving the day), Charm Person, Hypnotism, Sleep, Magic Missile (again taking out opponents the Ftr's can't), Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement (reduces opponent's threat with NO SAVE), Enlarge Person (can change a whole battle, but probably used on Ftr), and of course Expeditious Retreat (mage can be saved with one spell).That's just at 1st level!2nd level has Alter Self and Scorching Ray, both of which are more powerful than any number of feats a Ftr gets.And it gets worse from there....  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":eek:" title="Eek!    :eek:"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":eek:" /> I hope this points out how your statements that a Wizard is more likely to die, and is less powerful at low level, are fallacious arguments.But it's all opinion, and most opinions don't change regardless of persuasive arguments to the contrary, I just hope you can see the other side, KD.</blockquote>

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