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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 7559326" data-attributes="member: 5142"><p>Your personal attacks and strawmen aside, if you read my arguments in good faith, you would know that it is not about minimizing realism, Max. It's about acknowledging how "realism" itself is typically not the actual goal for self-professed advocates of "realism." This is why I asked you: </p><p>And similarly before: </p><p>The point is not that realism is not present in RPGs (that's your strawman) - and arguing that realism is a component of games is just a meaningless platitude - but, rather, that (1) notions of realism are <em>prejudiciously applied</em> (this is also a key point), and (2) this is typically for the sake of other underlying game design goals. IMHO, the underlying design goals within calls for "realism" serve as the actual end and value rather than "realism" itself. I think that both [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION]'s <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?656781-A-GMing-telling-the-players-about-the-gameworld-is-not-like-real-life&p=7558777&viewfull=1#post7558777" target="_blank">excellent response here</a> and [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION]'s suggestion to replace "realism" with "internal logic" allude to this issue. Both seem to acknowledge the deficiency of the term "realism" in describing the actual desired good here. The actual "good" or "value" is not so much "realism," but with how the players engage with the environment (or game) as part of cultivating the desired play experience. Based upon past conversations, I suspect that for the "Old School play" of Bedrockgames and Lanefan, the point is not "realism," but, instead, in having "known knowns" that help players make informed decisions conducive of skilled play. (If I am mistaken in summarizing their preferences here, I will gladly admit my error and welcome clarification.) This is also why I find appeals to "realism" in a system to be a smokescreen that masks the actual underlying issues of the desired game play. It would be easier to identify, design, and cultivate for that desired play experience without hiding it behind vague and prejudiciously applied notions of "realism" obscuring that process. </p><p></p><p>So, again, for example if we take the matter of healing. To me its inclusion as part of a game is not a matter of "realism," but, rather, of pacing and tone. We advocate different types of healing mechanics because we want different things out of the game experience rather than "realism." If we want something "Grim 'n' Gritty" where we want to emphasize character attrition, resource management, or the dangerous, survivalist tone of the imaginative play space, then we may desire to make healing slower or more difficult to come by. But it would be far more difficult to discuss how we would potentially design healing in such a game if it is obscured behind appeals to "realism." "Realism" almost becomes a red herring in the discussion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aldarc, post: 7559326, member: 5142"] Your personal attacks and strawmen aside, if you read my arguments in good faith, you would know that it is not about minimizing realism, Max. It's about acknowledging how "realism" itself is typically not the actual goal for self-professed advocates of "realism." This is why I asked you: And similarly before: The point is not that realism is not present in RPGs (that's your strawman) - and arguing that realism is a component of games is just a meaningless platitude - but, rather, that (1) notions of realism are [I]prejudiciously applied[/I] (this is also a key point), and (2) this is typically for the sake of other underlying game design goals. IMHO, the underlying design goals within calls for "realism" serve as the actual end and value rather than "realism" itself. I think that both [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION]'s [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?656781-A-GMing-telling-the-players-about-the-gameworld-is-not-like-real-life&p=7558777&viewfull=1#post7558777"]excellent response here[/URL] and [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION]'s suggestion to replace "realism" with "internal logic" allude to this issue. Both seem to acknowledge the deficiency of the term "realism" in describing the actual desired good here. The actual "good" or "value" is not so much "realism," but with how the players engage with the environment (or game) as part of cultivating the desired play experience. Based upon past conversations, I suspect that for the "Old School play" of Bedrockgames and Lanefan, the point is not "realism," but, instead, in having "known knowns" that help players make informed decisions conducive of skilled play. (If I am mistaken in summarizing their preferences here, I will gladly admit my error and welcome clarification.) This is also why I find appeals to "realism" in a system to be a smokescreen that masks the actual underlying issues of the desired game play. It would be easier to identify, design, and cultivate for that desired play experience without hiding it behind vague and prejudiciously applied notions of "realism" obscuring that process. So, again, for example if we take the matter of healing. To me its inclusion as part of a game is not a matter of "realism," but, rather, of pacing and tone. We advocate different types of healing mechanics because we want different things out of the game experience rather than "realism." If we want something "Grim 'n' Gritty" where we want to emphasize character attrition, resource management, or the dangerous, survivalist tone of the imaginative play space, then we may desire to make healing slower or more difficult to come by. But it would be far more difficult to discuss how we would potentially design healing in such a game if it is obscured behind appeals to "realism." "Realism" almost becomes a red herring in the discussion. [/QUOTE]
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