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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7567629" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Hmm. Some stuff to unpack, here.</p><p></p><p>Firstly, your characterization of SYORTD leaves out some important context, namely that if the GM doesn't say yes and instead goes to the mechanics, this still means that the player's action declaration comes true on a successful resolution of the mechanics. The GM cannot substitute a check for a different outcome as the Roll The Dice option, they must instead address the intent of the player's action faithfully. They must, if they roll the dice, fulfill the intent of the action declaration if the player is successful and thwart/complicate it if it isn't successful. Carrying this through to your OD&D example, your examples fails at SYORTD because the mechanics do not honor the action declaration. In this example, the player(s) declare that they wish to parley, the GM has denied that declaration (no say yes, no rolling the dice) and instead moved to combat, which is against the intent of the player(s). If this was SYORTD, then even if the GM did not say yes, the appropriate roll of the dice would be to determine if the parley attempt was successful, or, at least, opened for further play. If that check fails, then an appropriate resolution may indeed be the start of combat, as that definitely thwarts the intent of opening a parley.</p><p></p><p>I think you've internalized an incorrect formulation of SYORTD as it's meant to be applied. You're close, but you've not stepped all the way across the threshold. For example, you've said many times that DW doesn't allow players to insert new fictions through action declarations, and pointed to Spout Lore as an example. What I think you may miss is that when a player makes the Move to Spout Lore, the GM is obligated to provide new fiction according to the intent of the player on a success (or partial success). IE, the player prompts the GM on what new fiction they want, and the DM is required to provide it. If the player asks, for instance, if secret doors are common in this area and succeeds, it would be a poor GM reply to answer 'No' because that thwarts the player's clear intent to learn more about secret doors in the area. This isn't well expounded in the SRD materials, not sure about the actual book, but it goes with the GM's maxims for DW, namely, "leave blanks", "play to find out", "always speak true", and "let the players decide, sometimes." The point of DW is to build the game in play, and if you really think that only the GM has the authority to author or direct new fiction in play, then you're missing out on a core part of what makes PbtA games really work.</p><p></p><p>As I said before, I'm much more familiar with Blades. And you asked how it works there. Simply, the player declares an action and what 'stat' they're rolling for it and the GM assigns position and effect, or, more simply, how dangerous that action is and how effective a success can be. So, in Blades, a character can easily declare they're looking for a secret door to escape the guards closing in, and even choose Wreck as the method, deciding they're going to bash their way into the secret passage through brute force. As a GM, I could say that this is a desperate move -- ie, if it doesn't work, the guard will be here and they're already mad -- with limited effect because I've already described the alley as brick walled. The player then can choose to forgo this action as unwise and try something else, or roll, even choosing to Push for greater effect by spending Stress. On a success (a die pool based on the stat is rolled, highest value taken, 6 succeeds outright, 4-5 succeeds with cost, 1-3 fails), the player bashes through a secret door into a new passage and the fiction moves on. On a partial, the player maybe drops the loot in the impact, or takes a wound, or a guard is hot on his heels. On a fail, they may bounce off the wall because that secret door is actually in a very similar alley, just not this one, and the guards are now here (and still angry). </p><p></p><p>And, I see this working well in DW, as well. The player makes the same declaration, but makes the Move to Discern Reality to find the door. As a GM, you should honor this declaration by not refuting it on a success and saying 'no secret door here' but instead move the game forward by providing information on the door according to the questions asked. Then play can be a Defy Danger to open and leap through the door before the guards can arrive and play a tattoo with their clubs. There's nothing in DW that prohibits players from requesting specific outcomes or interests with their rolls, just that the GM must provide these results on a success. This actually moves the game from puzzling out the GM's plans to free-wheeling finding out as you play. I encourage you to try it.</p><p></p><p>Also, paging [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] for a sanity check on the above.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7567629, member: 16814"] Hmm. Some stuff to unpack, here. Firstly, your characterization of SYORTD leaves out some important context, namely that if the GM doesn't say yes and instead goes to the mechanics, this still means that the player's action declaration comes true on a successful resolution of the mechanics. The GM cannot substitute a check for a different outcome as the Roll The Dice option, they must instead address the intent of the player's action faithfully. They must, if they roll the dice, fulfill the intent of the action declaration if the player is successful and thwart/complicate it if it isn't successful. Carrying this through to your OD&D example, your examples fails at SYORTD because the mechanics do not honor the action declaration. In this example, the player(s) declare that they wish to parley, the GM has denied that declaration (no say yes, no rolling the dice) and instead moved to combat, which is against the intent of the player(s). If this was SYORTD, then even if the GM did not say yes, the appropriate roll of the dice would be to determine if the parley attempt was successful, or, at least, opened for further play. If that check fails, then an appropriate resolution may indeed be the start of combat, as that definitely thwarts the intent of opening a parley. I think you've internalized an incorrect formulation of SYORTD as it's meant to be applied. You're close, but you've not stepped all the way across the threshold. For example, you've said many times that DW doesn't allow players to insert new fictions through action declarations, and pointed to Spout Lore as an example. What I think you may miss is that when a player makes the Move to Spout Lore, the GM is obligated to provide new fiction according to the intent of the player on a success (or partial success). IE, the player prompts the GM on what new fiction they want, and the DM is required to provide it. If the player asks, for instance, if secret doors are common in this area and succeeds, it would be a poor GM reply to answer 'No' because that thwarts the player's clear intent to learn more about secret doors in the area. This isn't well expounded in the SRD materials, not sure about the actual book, but it goes with the GM's maxims for DW, namely, "leave blanks", "play to find out", "always speak true", and "let the players decide, sometimes." The point of DW is to build the game in play, and if you really think that only the GM has the authority to author or direct new fiction in play, then you're missing out on a core part of what makes PbtA games really work. As I said before, I'm much more familiar with Blades. And you asked how it works there. Simply, the player declares an action and what 'stat' they're rolling for it and the GM assigns position and effect, or, more simply, how dangerous that action is and how effective a success can be. So, in Blades, a character can easily declare they're looking for a secret door to escape the guards closing in, and even choose Wreck as the method, deciding they're going to bash their way into the secret passage through brute force. As a GM, I could say that this is a desperate move -- ie, if it doesn't work, the guard will be here and they're already mad -- with limited effect because I've already described the alley as brick walled. The player then can choose to forgo this action as unwise and try something else, or roll, even choosing to Push for greater effect by spending Stress. On a success (a die pool based on the stat is rolled, highest value taken, 6 succeeds outright, 4-5 succeeds with cost, 1-3 fails), the player bashes through a secret door into a new passage and the fiction moves on. On a partial, the player maybe drops the loot in the impact, or takes a wound, or a guard is hot on his heels. On a fail, they may bounce off the wall because that secret door is actually in a very similar alley, just not this one, and the guards are now here (and still angry). And, I see this working well in DW, as well. The player makes the same declaration, but makes the Move to Discern Reality to find the door. As a GM, you should honor this declaration by not refuting it on a success and saying 'no secret door here' but instead move the game forward by providing information on the door according to the questions asked. Then play can be a Defy Danger to open and leap through the door before the guards can arrive and play a tattoo with their clubs. There's nothing in DW that prohibits players from requesting specific outcomes or interests with their rolls, just that the GM must provide these results on a success. This actually moves the game from puzzling out the GM's plans to free-wheeling finding out as you play. I encourage you to try it. Also, paging [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] for a sanity check on the above. [/QUOTE]
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