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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7572911" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I strongly suggest that you closely read [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s hypothetical example of the poltergeist upthread, and what he says about using soft moves vs hard moves.</p><p></p><p>One point that follows from what is said in that post is that <em>the question you ask can't be answered in the abstract</em>. When is it proper to use a hard rather than a soft move? How much foreshadowing/prefiguring is the right amount? What would count as a GM squib; and what would count as heavy-handed GMing that is in "rocks fall" territory?</p><p></p><p>So here are some features of this example:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">* The player deliberately chose to have his PC implant the Eye of Vecna in the imp, not himself, because "Malstaph's not foolish enough to think that he's a god." </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* This itself built on multiple years of play in which the PC's flirtation with Vecna-worship had been a part of play (eg dozens of sessions earlier, when the PC picked up the Sword of Kas, I inflicted the damage it does to a Vecna-worshipper - the player didn't complain at all, but rather used this to confirm his hunch that the sword was indeed the Sword of Kas, hence doing damage to his Vecna-respecting PC).</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* In the moment of play, the player had the choice to provide a boon of souls to Vecna or to the Raven Queen. He couldn't choose both. I asked him which he chose. He pondered, though not for long, and then answered "The Raven Queen". He was presented with a choice, and made it.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">* I imposed the consequence, which was - in mechanical terms - a modest de-buff that ended up lasting a handful of sessions. The player didn't have any objection. I don't know if he anticipated it, but - in Dungeon World terms - it was undoubtedly <em>a move that followed from the fiction</em>. In DW mechanical terms, this is the sort of thing that might happen on a 7-9 result (ie the player gets something s/he wants for his/her PC, but also has to pay a cost which - often - is going to be established by the GM).</p><p></p><p>Is your Frost Giant example similar? <em>As I've read your account of it</em>, it doesn't seem to be a move that follows from the established fiction, imposed as a consequence at a moment of dramatic choice. That's not to say that it's <em>bad GMing</em>. But as you've presented it, I don't see how (for instance) I could reconcile it with DW-like GMing principles.</p><p></p><p> [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]'s example of the GM deciding his PC's castle had been taken over by another seems to follow even less from a player choice, and from the established fiction - I would regard it as being in "rocks fall" territory.</p><p></p><p>What is a player staking? What is the established fiction? (Not in the mind of the GM - I mean <em>at the table</em>.) What "soft moves" have already been made? Does the player see the situation as having the same significance as the GM?</p><p></p><p>This is all in the realm of judgement, not machine-like rules.</p><p></p><p>I'll finish with this post from the Burning Wheel rulebook (it's found in more than one edition, but can be found in Gold edition at p 54):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">We once had a character with the Belief: "I will one day restore my wife’s life." His wife had died, and he kept her body around, trying to figure out a way to bring her back. Well, mid-way through the game, the GM magically restored his wife to the land of the living. I’ve never seen a more crushed player. He didn't know what do! He had stated that the quest and the struggle was the goal, not the end result. "One day!" he said. But the GM insisted, and the whole scenario and character were ruined for the player.</p><p></p><p>It take skill as a GM to avoid squibbing while also avoiding "rocks fall".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7572911, member: 42582"] I strongly suggest that you closely read [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s hypothetical example of the poltergeist upthread, and what he says about using soft moves vs hard moves. One point that follows from what is said in that post is that [I]the question you ask can't be answered in the abstract[/I]. When is it proper to use a hard rather than a soft move? How much foreshadowing/prefiguring is the right amount? What would count as a GM squib; and what would count as heavy-handed GMing that is in "rocks fall" territory? So here are some features of this example: [indent]* The player deliberately chose to have his PC implant the Eye of Vecna in the imp, not himself, because "Malstaph's not foolish enough to think that he's a god." * This itself built on multiple years of play in which the PC's flirtation with Vecna-worship had been a part of play (eg dozens of sessions earlier, when the PC picked up the Sword of Kas, I inflicted the damage it does to a Vecna-worshipper - the player didn't complain at all, but rather used this to confirm his hunch that the sword was indeed the Sword of Kas, hence doing damage to his Vecna-respecting PC). * In the moment of play, the player had the choice to provide a boon of souls to Vecna or to the Raven Queen. He couldn't choose both. I asked him which he chose. He pondered, though not for long, and then answered "The Raven Queen". He was presented with a choice, and made it. * I imposed the consequence, which was - in mechanical terms - a modest de-buff that ended up lasting a handful of sessions. The player didn't have any objection. I don't know if he anticipated it, but - in Dungeon World terms - it was undoubtedly [I]a move that followed from the fiction[/I]. In DW mechanical terms, this is the sort of thing that might happen on a 7-9 result (ie the player gets something s/he wants for his/her PC, but also has to pay a cost which - often - is going to be established by the GM).[/indent] Is your Frost Giant example similar? [I]As I've read your account of it[/I], it doesn't seem to be a move that follows from the established fiction, imposed as a consequence at a moment of dramatic choice. That's not to say that it's [I]bad GMing[/I]. But as you've presented it, I don't see how (for instance) I could reconcile it with DW-like GMing principles. [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]'s example of the GM deciding his PC's castle had been taken over by another seems to follow even less from a player choice, and from the established fiction - I would regard it as being in "rocks fall" territory. What is a player staking? What is the established fiction? (Not in the mind of the GM - I mean [I]at the table[/I].) What "soft moves" have already been made? Does the player see the situation as having the same significance as the GM? This is all in the realm of judgement, not machine-like rules. I'll finish with this post from the Burning Wheel rulebook (it's found in more than one edition, but can be found in Gold edition at p 54): [indent]We once had a character with the Belief: "I will one day restore my wife’s life." His wife had died, and he kept her body around, trying to figure out a way to bring her back. Well, mid-way through the game, the GM magically restored his wife to the land of the living. I’ve never seen a more crushed player. He didn't know what do! He had stated that the quest and the struggle was the goal, not the end result. "One day!" he said. But the GM insisted, and the whole scenario and character were ruined for the player.[/indent] It take skill as a GM to avoid squibbing while also avoiding "rocks fall". [/QUOTE]
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