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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Guest&nbsp; 85555" data-source="post: 7574178"><p>Except, and I say this as a person who really disliked 4E and used plenty of insulting language in the debates over it, if you are framing the discussion this way, with heavily loaded language, that is going to bias your analysis. My analysis of 4E wasn't objective. It was based on a real reaction I had, and I think stating that initial reaction is fine. But after years of these kinds of discussions, to cling to terms like that to, to insist on language like mother may i, my whole point is you can't really analyze this stuff objectively if your mired in gaming ideology the way the OP is. I feel like it is very hard for me and Pemerton to have a real conversation about what drives my style of play, because he is always looking for the angle of attack. And mother may I is just one aspect of that. Whereas, I think I could have an honest conversation with Pemerton about his style of play, because I am genuinely curious about other play styles, and I am not looking to disprove them. But in conversation with Pemerton and a lot of his followers, we have to struggle just to even prove our preference exists in the first place. Not saying everyone on my side of the debate has behaved perfectly. but this isn't simply about people having grievances. We are pointing out this isn't a real conversation or a real analysis. It is a flamewar disguised as analysis.</p></blockquote><p></p>