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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7576249" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>Of course. But none of that saves me from the here-and-now situation of being surprised by my surroundings - in this case gin masquerading as water. (which, btw, could just as easily happen at home as in a bar)</p><p></p><p>Which tells me that a) you don't like being deceived by elements in the setting (e.g. the water is actually gin) and b) you don't like being surprised when things aren't as they appear.</p><p></p><p>I take it you don't often (if at all) use illusions in framing your scenes, i.e. where much or all of what you describe to the players is an elaborate illusion intended to deceive the viewers (the PCs) either to give a false impression or an early combat advantage. Pity.</p><p></p><p>One cool encounter we had a few years back: party is in a palace; within this palace is an area filled with rock riddled with small narrow tunnel-like passages. Once we're in these passages we get repeatedly attacked by creatures stepping out of the walls, swinging weapons, and then blending back in often before we could react. Took us forever to figure out the "passages" were all illusory and we were in fact in one great big chamber.</p><p></p><p>If these are the case then it'd be exploration. See below.</p><p></p><p>I'll concede this wouldn't count as social if the whole transaction was done via interaction with machines (in our real world this would equate to online ordering leading to robotic delivery). But as soon as the PC interacts with a shopkeeper it's social, even if it isn't role-played out at the table.</p><p></p><p>Desert crossing: see below. </p><p></p><p>Describing the situation: in order to receive that description it's assumed that the PCs are using their senses (vision, hearing, scent, etc.) to determine what's around them; the very act of which is pure exploration.</p><p></p><p>I bolded the key bits there - crossing a desert would seem to count as movement through the world, hm?</p><p></p><p>The pursuit sounds like an offshoot of combat. The social bit where they surrender and thus interact with their pursuers looks by this description to have been skipped, leading straight to you describing their situation in prison - which looks from here like <em>describing what happens as a result of their action</em>, which was to surrender. Failing that, to get this description the PCs would still have to engage their senses as noted above.</p><p></p><p>In other words, exploration no matter how you slice it.</p><p></p><p>They weren't exploring in the sense of discovering something new, but they were in the exploration pillar nonetheless as they were moving through the world.</p><p></p><p>All this is simply describing the mechanics of how a particular system handles an action (or series of) in the exploration pillar.</p><p></p><p>Again, just mechanics surrounding exploration.</p><p></p><p>And each respective pillar extends far beyond those examples.</p><p></p><p>Again you come back to mechanics.</p><p></p><p>Back off from the mechanics for a moment and consider the underlying thing that's transpiring in the fiction. A group of PCs are crossing a desert - OK, fine; but that's exploration no matter what specific mechanics (or lack thereof) get overlaid by the game system in use.</p><p></p><p>Hmmm - a challenge. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Running a race = combat, of a sort</p><p>Ensuring a spaceship makes a clean jump = exploration as the goal (the jump itself) with associated preparations</p><p>Successfully placing a secret message = social as the goal (successful receipt of the message) with associated preparations</p><p>Ensuring a message is sent = social as the goal (successful receipt of the message) with possible other elements depending on what means are required to ensure it gets sent</p><p>Intercepting/blocking comm signals = social (in the negative sense of blocking social interaction), and exploration if the intent is to gather information from the intercepted signals</p><p>Repairing a vehicle = downtime (probably)</p><p>Testing a creature's DNA = exploration (information gathering) and-or downtime (research)</p><p>Making checks to avoid getting caught = irrelevant (pure mechanics); it's the illegal acts themselves, whether successful or not, that would fall under a pillar - can't say which as what those acts are isn't given</p><p>Lighting a campfire = downtime (probably); or social if the intent is to send a signal or have it be a beacon</p><p>Recalling a fact = could be any of social, exploration, or downtime; depends on the context in which the fact needs to be recalled (and, possibly, what the fact is)</p><p></p><p>I think we mostly agree on this, though one could just as easily say the give-and-take bit applies here too:</p><p></p><p><em>the players describing what they want their characters to do</em> (they want their characters to learn more information)</p><p><em>the Dungeon Master telling the players what happens as a result</em> (you get more information, which consists of ...)</p><p></p><p>What's more telling is that the post kept coming back to game mechanics; particularly just above where you point out that 5e doesn't have an appropriate system of checks. The presence or absence of supporting game mechanics has nothing to do with the presence or absence of an underlying pillar of play.</p><p></p><p>Exploration is still exploration and the PCs (very likely!) still want to know what's around them regardless of whether this is achieved by straight GM narration or by skill challenges or by the framing of a scene or whatever.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7576249, member: 29398"] Of course. But none of that saves me from the here-and-now situation of being surprised by my surroundings - in this case gin masquerading as water. (which, btw, could just as easily happen at home as in a bar) Which tells me that a) you don't like being deceived by elements in the setting (e.g. the water is actually gin) and b) you don't like being surprised when things aren't as they appear. I take it you don't often (if at all) use illusions in framing your scenes, i.e. where much or all of what you describe to the players is an elaborate illusion intended to deceive the viewers (the PCs) either to give a false impression or an early combat advantage. Pity. One cool encounter we had a few years back: party is in a palace; within this palace is an area filled with rock riddled with small narrow tunnel-like passages. Once we're in these passages we get repeatedly attacked by creatures stepping out of the walls, swinging weapons, and then blending back in often before we could react. Took us forever to figure out the "passages" were all illusory and we were in fact in one great big chamber. If these are the case then it'd be exploration. See below. I'll concede this wouldn't count as social if the whole transaction was done via interaction with machines (in our real world this would equate to online ordering leading to robotic delivery). But as soon as the PC interacts with a shopkeeper it's social, even if it isn't role-played out at the table. Desert crossing: see below. Describing the situation: in order to receive that description it's assumed that the PCs are using their senses (vision, hearing, scent, etc.) to determine what's around them; the very act of which is pure exploration. I bolded the key bits there - crossing a desert would seem to count as movement through the world, hm? The pursuit sounds like an offshoot of combat. The social bit where they surrender and thus interact with their pursuers looks by this description to have been skipped, leading straight to you describing their situation in prison - which looks from here like [I]describing what happens as a result of their action[/I], which was to surrender. Failing that, to get this description the PCs would still have to engage their senses as noted above. In other words, exploration no matter how you slice it. They weren't exploring in the sense of discovering something new, but they were in the exploration pillar nonetheless as they were moving through the world. All this is simply describing the mechanics of how a particular system handles an action (or series of) in the exploration pillar. Again, just mechanics surrounding exploration. And each respective pillar extends far beyond those examples. Again you come back to mechanics. Back off from the mechanics for a moment and consider the underlying thing that's transpiring in the fiction. A group of PCs are crossing a desert - OK, fine; but that's exploration no matter what specific mechanics (or lack thereof) get overlaid by the game system in use. Hmmm - a challenge. :) Running a race = combat, of a sort Ensuring a spaceship makes a clean jump = exploration as the goal (the jump itself) with associated preparations Successfully placing a secret message = social as the goal (successful receipt of the message) with associated preparations Ensuring a message is sent = social as the goal (successful receipt of the message) with possible other elements depending on what means are required to ensure it gets sent Intercepting/blocking comm signals = social (in the negative sense of blocking social interaction), and exploration if the intent is to gather information from the intercepted signals Repairing a vehicle = downtime (probably) Testing a creature's DNA = exploration (information gathering) and-or downtime (research) Making checks to avoid getting caught = irrelevant (pure mechanics); it's the illegal acts themselves, whether successful or not, that would fall under a pillar - can't say which as what those acts are isn't given Lighting a campfire = downtime (probably); or social if the intent is to send a signal or have it be a beacon Recalling a fact = could be any of social, exploration, or downtime; depends on the context in which the fact needs to be recalled (and, possibly, what the fact is) I think we mostly agree on this, though one could just as easily say the give-and-take bit applies here too: [I]the players describing what they want their characters to do[/I] (they want their characters to learn more information) [I]the Dungeon Master telling the players what happens as a result[/I] (you get more information, which consists of ...) What's more telling is that the post kept coming back to game mechanics; particularly just above where you point out that 5e doesn't have an appropriate system of checks. The presence or absence of supporting game mechanics has nothing to do with the presence or absence of an underlying pillar of play. Exploration is still exploration and the PCs (very likely!) still want to know what's around them regardless of whether this is achieved by straight GM narration or by skill challenges or by the framing of a scene or whatever. [/QUOTE]
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