Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7576307" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>My categories were already taking subjectivity into account. There are 3 types of games. </p><p></p><p>1) Games that work.</p><p>2) Games that don’t work.</p><p>3) Games that partially work. </p><p></p><p>Are you really saying that there are no games of D&D that fall into category 1? </p><p></p><p>Obviously, where a particular game is would be a subjective thing. You might think a game is working fine, and I may think it’s working okay, and yet another person thinks it’s awful. That’s all fine. But objectively there are those three categories.</p><p></p><p>Would you agree with that?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The OP did not cause anyone to do anything. Each of us has chosen to engage in this conversation to whatever extent we have because of our own inclinations.</p><p></p><p>It’s incredibly clear at this point, and has been for tens of pages worth of comments, that the OP did not mean MMI in a pejorative manner. You’ve been arguing that for dozens of posts, and have made some really strange arguments along the way (i.e. a DM fudging a die roll is actually a DM preserving chance? Um...okay....).</p><p></p><p>As I’ve said in a couple of posts, we need to try and be aware of context and intent. If you didn’t quite grasp the fact that MMI was not really being used pejoratively in the OP, okay that’s fine....but in the subsequent clarifications and qualifications that have been made, have you realized it? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right. Two things on this.</p><p></p><p>First, a DM who never really abuses the authority granted to him by the default assumptions of D&D is probably running the kind of game that his players expect, and would likely fall into category 1 above. So not much to talk about there; things are going fine and they should proceed and enjoy. The issue is in games where it does come up.</p><p></p><p>Second, for some, a system where there is even a possibility that the GM can at any point in time bend the game to his desires is one that some folks don’t enjoy. Even if the DM proves to be principled in his judgment and rulings, that kind of system does not appeal to them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, I’m almost reluctant to bring this one up but hey let’s use this old chestnut....</p><p></p><p>Our 3rd level party is attacked by strange creatures, giant green skinned monsters with long noses and wicked claws. They are vicious and what’s worse, their wounds heal before our eyes!!!</p><p></p><p>Let’s say we’re at a table of veteran players. One rolls his eyes and then declares that his character lights a torch and throws an oil flask at one of the creatures. He says “Tordek’s Uncle Elmo told him about such creatures, they’re vulnerable to flame!” The other players smile and nod. </p><p></p><p>Here the player is basically saying “I’m not really interested in a random encounter with trolls and in pretending my character doesn’t know about their vulnerability, so I’ve come up with a way around it”. </p><p></p><p>How the DM responds to this situation is what is in question. Based on your comments in this thread, I thibk you’d consider this solution cheating, and you’d deny it.</p><p></p><p>Which to me is far worse than metagaming because basically the whole group looked at the encounter and said “not interested” and the DM denied their preferences and proceeded with running things how he wanted. Which is kind of a strong example f the DM being a jerk, in my oponion.</p><p></p><p>So the MMI flaw in GM Driven game systems can surface in a variety of ways, and how it’s handled can vary greatly as well. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Or playing a different game or having a discussion and coming to some kind of compromise that all can live with or any number of other options.</p><p></p><p>In the case of the OP in the original thread, perhaps asking others how to incorporate some player driven content in order to help engage a player. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sometimes it’s hard to tell. You seem to have a very binary view.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 7576307, member: 6785785"] My categories were already taking subjectivity into account. There are 3 types of games. 1) Games that work. 2) Games that don’t work. 3) Games that partially work. Are you really saying that there are no games of D&D that fall into category 1? Obviously, where a particular game is would be a subjective thing. You might think a game is working fine, and I may think it’s working okay, and yet another person thinks it’s awful. That’s all fine. But objectively there are those three categories. Would you agree with that? The OP did not cause anyone to do anything. Each of us has chosen to engage in this conversation to whatever extent we have because of our own inclinations. It’s incredibly clear at this point, and has been for tens of pages worth of comments, that the OP did not mean MMI in a pejorative manner. You’ve been arguing that for dozens of posts, and have made some really strange arguments along the way (i.e. a DM fudging a die roll is actually a DM preserving chance? Um...okay....). As I’ve said in a couple of posts, we need to try and be aware of context and intent. If you didn’t quite grasp the fact that MMI was not really being used pejoratively in the OP, okay that’s fine....but in the subsequent clarifications and qualifications that have been made, have you realized it? Right. Two things on this. First, a DM who never really abuses the authority granted to him by the default assumptions of D&D is probably running the kind of game that his players expect, and would likely fall into category 1 above. So not much to talk about there; things are going fine and they should proceed and enjoy. The issue is in games where it does come up. Second, for some, a system where there is even a possibility that the GM can at any point in time bend the game to his desires is one that some folks don’t enjoy. Even if the DM proves to be principled in his judgment and rulings, that kind of system does not appeal to them. Okay, I’m almost reluctant to bring this one up but hey let’s use this old chestnut.... Our 3rd level party is attacked by strange creatures, giant green skinned monsters with long noses and wicked claws. They are vicious and what’s worse, their wounds heal before our eyes!!! Let’s say we’re at a table of veteran players. One rolls his eyes and then declares that his character lights a torch and throws an oil flask at one of the creatures. He says “Tordek’s Uncle Elmo told him about such creatures, they’re vulnerable to flame!” The other players smile and nod. Here the player is basically saying “I’m not really interested in a random encounter with trolls and in pretending my character doesn’t know about their vulnerability, so I’ve come up with a way around it”. How the DM responds to this situation is what is in question. Based on your comments in this thread, I thibk you’d consider this solution cheating, and you’d deny it. Which to me is far worse than metagaming because basically the whole group looked at the encounter and said “not interested” and the DM denied their preferences and proceeded with running things how he wanted. Which is kind of a strong example f the DM being a jerk, in my oponion. So the MMI flaw in GM Driven game systems can surface in a variety of ways, and how it’s handled can vary greatly as well. Or playing a different game or having a discussion and coming to some kind of compromise that all can live with or any number of other options. In the case of the OP in the original thread, perhaps asking others how to incorporate some player driven content in order to help engage a player. Sometimes it’s hard to tell. You seem to have a very binary view. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
Top