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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7576388" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>You're draing the wrong inference.</p><p></p><p>What it tells you is <em>I don't like a game where the focus is on <u>learning the pre-established fiction</u> as opposed to <u>changing the fiction</u></em>.</p><p></p><p>Deciet by elements in the setting is fine, if it is the <em>output</em> of action resolution.</p><p></p><p>Given that this whole thread is about resolution techniques, why would I back off from discussing them?</p><p></p><p><em>Te content of the fiction is largely irrelevant to whether a RPG gives a good or bad experience</em>. Proof: if it was otherwise, then it would make no difference whether the game proceeded in the typical mode of a RPG, or whether it proceeded by the players just sitting there and having the GM tell them a story. Because both things can produce <em>excactly the same fiction</em>. But the first might be fun while the second will almost certainly suck.</p><p></p><p>This is all pointless and bizarre. Only a few bits of it are worth respoding to.</p><p></p><p>Running a race is not a combat. It's a competition.</p><p></p><p>Making sure a starship engine doesn't fail during jump is not exploring anything. It's performing a mechanical task. The only reason you "pillars" don't have a <em>craft/repair</em> element to them is because that's never been a significant focus of D&D play, because D&D is set in a pre-technological world. And the reason you label repairing a vehicle as "downtime" is because, in D&D, magic item crafting is framed as something that happens outside the main focus of dungeoneering play. This is why I described your classification as projection: you've so internalised the dynamics of D&D c 1980 or thereabouts that you seem to find it literally inconceivable that there might be RPGs which don't focus on dungeon-delving or bank robbing as the main part of play.</p><p></p><p>In my Prince Valiant game, we played a scenario in which <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?654732-Prince-Valiant-actual-play" target="_blank">the PC knights accompanied a crimson bull to a swamp</a>, where it was to be killed by a pagan wise woman. On the way through they had some strange interactions with the bull, and wondered and debated what to do with it. In the end, one of them used his dagger blessed by St Sigobert to dispel a demonic spirit that was possessing the bull; and in doing so, so impressed the wise woman that she agreed to be baptised at the Shrine of St Sigobert.</p><p></p><p>Nothing was being explored. No maps were drawn by me as GM or by the players - we jointly looked at our map of Britain at the back of the Pendragon hardback to get a general sense of where the PCs were travelling to, and then the journey was simply narrated (<em>You walk for a day through the forest</em>; <em>You arrive at the valley</em>; etc). There were some social elements to the scenario - eg talking to the bull - but that was not all of it. The hurling of the dagger into the mist of the demon as it left the body of the bull was not <em>combat</em> in any genuine sense - there was no fight going on.</p><p></p><p>D&D doesn't exhaust the possible range of fiction, nor the possible range of play techniques, that can figure in RPGing. It adds nothing to our understanding of how RPGing works to try and cram everything into D&D's categories.</p><p></p><p>This is so backwards it's hard to put into words.</p><p></p><p>It's a bit like saying that all road transport can be explained in terms of steering wheels, drive shafts and carburetors. And then insisting that a motorcycles handlebars and chain are <em>really</em> a streering wheel and a drive shaft.</p><p></p><p>Or that all moving piectures can be explained in terms of light projected through a film onto a screen - and then analysing a TV in those terms (I'll let someone else work out how one could even go about that analysis).</p><p></p><p>In my Prince Valiant game, there is no difference between the narration of "downtime" (<em>OK, seasons pass, you hear rumours of Saxon invasion</em>) and the narration of travel (<em>OK, you travel for a few days, and you arrive back at Warwick</em>).</p><p></p><p>In my Burning Wheel game, the action resolution for recovering resources, or recovering health, over an extended period of ingame time is no different from the action resolution for buying a sword or for bluffing a guard or for climbing a fence. There's no notion of "downtime", because there's no notion of <em>the adventure</em> or <em>the dungeon expedition</em> as there is in D&D. There are different things that players might have their PCs do, that take different amounts of ingame time, and are resolved via different ratios of ingame to real-world time.</p><p></p><p>We've already established that breaking interpersonal conflict out into distinct "combat" and "social" categories means that athletics competitions can't be accounted for; in Cortex+ Heroic there is no difference between these things at all, and - for instance - a character can cause another to wilt in shame by besting him/her in swordplay. Similarly, in the example of play for Marvel Heroic RP we see Wolverine using his Adamantium Claws in a dice pool used to inflict Emotional Stress (ie scaring off some enemy NPCs). This sort of thing is omething that D&D doesn't easily allow for. (Hence the recurrent discussions of why it is that bards are more intimidating than barbarians.)</p><p></p><p>As [MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION] said not far upthread, why not start trying to think about other RPGs, and the techniques and approaches they involve, on their own terms rather than through this narrow and distorting lens of 80s-style D&D.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7576388, member: 42582"] You're draing the wrong inference. What it tells you is [I]I don't like a game where the focus is on [U]learning the pre-established fiction[/U] as opposed to [U]changing the fiction[/U][/I]. Deciet by elements in the setting is fine, if it is the [I]output[/I] of action resolution. Given that this whole thread is about resolution techniques, why would I back off from discussing them? [I]Te content of the fiction is largely irrelevant to whether a RPG gives a good or bad experience[/I]. Proof: if it was otherwise, then it would make no difference whether the game proceeded in the typical mode of a RPG, or whether it proceeded by the players just sitting there and having the GM tell them a story. Because both things can produce [I]excactly the same fiction[/I]. But the first might be fun while the second will almost certainly suck. This is all pointless and bizarre. Only a few bits of it are worth respoding to. Running a race is not a combat. It's a competition. Making sure a starship engine doesn't fail during jump is not exploring anything. It's performing a mechanical task. The only reason you "pillars" don't have a [I]craft/repair[/I] element to them is because that's never been a significant focus of D&D play, because D&D is set in a pre-technological world. And the reason you label repairing a vehicle as "downtime" is because, in D&D, magic item crafting is framed as something that happens outside the main focus of dungeoneering play. This is why I described your classification as projection: you've so internalised the dynamics of D&D c 1980 or thereabouts that you seem to find it literally inconceivable that there might be RPGs which don't focus on dungeon-delving or bank robbing as the main part of play. In my Prince Valiant game, we played a scenario in which [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?654732-Prince-Valiant-actual-play]the PC knights accompanied a crimson bull to a swamp[/url], where it was to be killed by a pagan wise woman. On the way through they had some strange interactions with the bull, and wondered and debated what to do with it. In the end, one of them used his dagger blessed by St Sigobert to dispel a demonic spirit that was possessing the bull; and in doing so, so impressed the wise woman that she agreed to be baptised at the Shrine of St Sigobert. Nothing was being explored. No maps were drawn by me as GM or by the players - we jointly looked at our map of Britain at the back of the Pendragon hardback to get a general sense of where the PCs were travelling to, and then the journey was simply narrated ([I]You walk for a day through the forest[/I]; [I]You arrive at the valley[/I]; etc). There were some social elements to the scenario - eg talking to the bull - but that was not all of it. The hurling of the dagger into the mist of the demon as it left the body of the bull was not [I]combat[/I] in any genuine sense - there was no fight going on. D&D doesn't exhaust the possible range of fiction, nor the possible range of play techniques, that can figure in RPGing. It adds nothing to our understanding of how RPGing works to try and cram everything into D&D's categories. This is so backwards it's hard to put into words. It's a bit like saying that all road transport can be explained in terms of steering wheels, drive shafts and carburetors. And then insisting that a motorcycles handlebars and chain are [I]really[/I] a streering wheel and a drive shaft. Or that all moving piectures can be explained in terms of light projected through a film onto a screen - and then analysing a TV in those terms (I'll let someone else work out how one could even go about that analysis). In my Prince Valiant game, there is no difference between the narration of "downtime" ([I]OK, seasons pass, you hear rumours of Saxon invasion[/I]) and the narration of travel ([i]OK, you travel for a few days, and you arrive back at Warwick[/I]). In my Burning Wheel game, the action resolution for recovering resources, or recovering health, over an extended period of ingame time is no different from the action resolution for buying a sword or for bluffing a guard or for climbing a fence. There's no notion of "downtime", because there's no notion of [I]the adventure[/I] or [I]the dungeon expedition[/I] as there is in D&D. There are different things that players might have their PCs do, that take different amounts of ingame time, and are resolved via different ratios of ingame to real-world time. We've already established that breaking interpersonal conflict out into distinct "combat" and "social" categories means that athletics competitions can't be accounted for; in Cortex+ Heroic there is no difference between these things at all, and - for instance - a character can cause another to wilt in shame by besting him/her in swordplay. Similarly, in the example of play for Marvel Heroic RP we see Wolverine using his Adamantium Claws in a dice pool used to inflict Emotional Stress (ie scaring off some enemy NPCs). This sort of thing is omething that D&D doesn't easily allow for. (Hence the recurrent discussions of why it is that bards are more intimidating than barbarians.) As [MENTION=1282]darkbard[/MENTION] said not far upthread, why not start trying to think about other RPGs, and the techniques and approaches they involve, on their own terms rather than through this narrow and distorting lens of 80s-style D&D. [/QUOTE]
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