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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7576781" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>I'm talking about having deceitful elements as input rather than output; to wit, that the action declarations could be sometimes based on legitimately faulty information obtained or observed by the PCs. Examples:</p><p></p><p> - the person you've been talking to (and maybe preparing to attack) isn't the evil baron but is someone in disguise; the real baron is the third guard on the left</p><p> - the empty room you've just entered isn't empty at all, it just looks that way courtesy of a permanent illusion</p><p> - your contact in the thieves' guild (or maybe even one of the PCs!) is a double agent and has been feeding you false info to steer you away from your real objective</p><p> - the Mace of Terriann that you think you just picked up from beneath the throne is actually a fake (though it radiates magic); the real Mace still lies in a hidden hole just beneath where the fake one was</p><p></p><p>Each of these could lead to all sorts of action declarations that would have been different had the input information been true and accurate.</p><p></p><p>You keep trying to make it about resolution techniques. It started as an in-game-realism v real-world-realism discussion and went from there.</p><p></p><p>In your eyes, perhaps. But flip it around to the other axis: the exact same game/system (whatever it may be) can and likely will produce vastly different fiction from one campaign to the next, and fiction that utterly captivates one group could well leave another bored to tears.</p><p></p><p>A competition is a form of combat.</p><p></p><p>Yes, in and of itself. But look at it in even a slightly broader way and ask why it's being done, and the answer will in one form or another boil down to exploration. (remember, exploration includes movement within the world and in Traveller's case 'world' kinda means galaxy)</p><p></p><p>Again, look just a bit more broadly and ask why the vehicle is being repaired. Is the PC repairing vehicles as a means of filling time and making a few bucks between doing more exciting things? Is the PC repairing it because it's her only hope of getting off this dying planet? Is the PC repairing it because she just accidentally broke it and wants to get it fixed before anyone else notices?</p><p></p><p>Nothing new was being explored but the travel still puts it in the exploration realm.</p><p></p><p>No fight, perhaps, but throwing a weapon at a perceived enemy still sounds like combat from here. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Well nothing exhausts the possible range of fiction, so this one's a bit of a red herring. D&D ceratinly does not exhaust the possible range of play techniques. But taking a concept (the pillars) that just happened to come from a D&D edition and applying it universally certainly can and in my case does help understand or clarify how RPGs (can) work; all 5e did was clarify and codify something that's always been there in the background probably without a lot of us realizing it was there.</p><p></p><p>Had this clarification come from some other source whose words you value more highly we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.</p><p></p><p>Not quite.</p><p></p><p>Perhaps it's more like saying that self-directed ground-based transportation always has a few key elements to it: a surface that will allow travel (be it roads, rails, trails, whatever); a means of propulsion and acceleration (engine, feet, pedal-chains-gears, or whatever; and this would also include fuel); a means of slowing or stopping movement (brakes, usually, or feet); a means of setting and-or altering direction of travel (steering, feet, etc.); and things related to the comfort and-or safety of the traveller(s).</p><p></p><p>Everything to do with ground-based travel can be broken down into, and explained as being a part of, one or more of those five elements: surface, propulsion, deceleration, direction, and safety/comfort. (propulsion-deceleration might even be combinable)</p><p></p><p>And even though I've never owned a motorbike I can still say which basic parts of it fit in which of the above elements; ditto for a locomotive (which I've also never owned, except in HO-scale model form) or my feet (of which I still have two). <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>No difference in narration, sure. Difference in pillar, though. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Right, I get this.</p><p></p><p>But how the action is being resolved (mechanical) doesn't remove it from why it's being done (pillar of play).</p><p></p><p>There may not be a notion of between-adventure downtime in BW, and depending how it's run the PCs might never get a chance to sit back and relax for a bit - but that doesn't deny that downtime as a universal aspect* of RPG play, it only says that this particular table has chosen to exclude it.</p><p></p><p>Same thing as running an RPG without any combat. It can be done, and has been I'm sure, but the doing of such doesn't remove combat as a universal aspect of RPG play.</p><p></p><p>You've tried to establish this; from here athletic comptitions are a form of combat. They might not use the same mechanics, but the idea of striving to defeat someone else (or several someone elses) is still combative.</p><p></p><p>Both of these examples mix elements of combat and social together - the swordplay one in particular uses combat as an action to generate a social result on success. Seems fine from here. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Because the aspects-of-play idea goes way, way beyond just 80's style D&D.</p><p></p><p>* - if I call them 'aspects' instead of 'pillars' does that help? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7576781, member: 29398"] I'm talking about having deceitful elements as input rather than output; to wit, that the action declarations could be sometimes based on legitimately faulty information obtained or observed by the PCs. Examples: - the person you've been talking to (and maybe preparing to attack) isn't the evil baron but is someone in disguise; the real baron is the third guard on the left - the empty room you've just entered isn't empty at all, it just looks that way courtesy of a permanent illusion - your contact in the thieves' guild (or maybe even one of the PCs!) is a double agent and has been feeding you false info to steer you away from your real objective - the Mace of Terriann that you think you just picked up from beneath the throne is actually a fake (though it radiates magic); the real Mace still lies in a hidden hole just beneath where the fake one was Each of these could lead to all sorts of action declarations that would have been different had the input information been true and accurate. You keep trying to make it about resolution techniques. It started as an in-game-realism v real-world-realism discussion and went from there. In your eyes, perhaps. But flip it around to the other axis: the exact same game/system (whatever it may be) can and likely will produce vastly different fiction from one campaign to the next, and fiction that utterly captivates one group could well leave another bored to tears. A competition is a form of combat. Yes, in and of itself. But look at it in even a slightly broader way and ask why it's being done, and the answer will in one form or another boil down to exploration. (remember, exploration includes movement within the world and in Traveller's case 'world' kinda means galaxy) Again, look just a bit more broadly and ask why the vehicle is being repaired. Is the PC repairing vehicles as a means of filling time and making a few bucks between doing more exciting things? Is the PC repairing it because it's her only hope of getting off this dying planet? Is the PC repairing it because she just accidentally broke it and wants to get it fixed before anyone else notices? Nothing new was being explored but the travel still puts it in the exploration realm. No fight, perhaps, but throwing a weapon at a perceived enemy still sounds like combat from here. :) Well nothing exhausts the possible range of fiction, so this one's a bit of a red herring. D&D ceratinly does not exhaust the possible range of play techniques. But taking a concept (the pillars) that just happened to come from a D&D edition and applying it universally certainly can and in my case does help understand or clarify how RPGs (can) work; all 5e did was clarify and codify something that's always been there in the background probably without a lot of us realizing it was there. Had this clarification come from some other source whose words you value more highly we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Not quite. Perhaps it's more like saying that self-directed ground-based transportation always has a few key elements to it: a surface that will allow travel (be it roads, rails, trails, whatever); a means of propulsion and acceleration (engine, feet, pedal-chains-gears, or whatever; and this would also include fuel); a means of slowing or stopping movement (brakes, usually, or feet); a means of setting and-or altering direction of travel (steering, feet, etc.); and things related to the comfort and-or safety of the traveller(s). Everything to do with ground-based travel can be broken down into, and explained as being a part of, one or more of those five elements: surface, propulsion, deceleration, direction, and safety/comfort. (propulsion-deceleration might even be combinable) And even though I've never owned a motorbike I can still say which basic parts of it fit in which of the above elements; ditto for a locomotive (which I've also never owned, except in HO-scale model form) or my feet (of which I still have two). :) No difference in narration, sure. Difference in pillar, though. :) Right, I get this. But how the action is being resolved (mechanical) doesn't remove it from why it's being done (pillar of play). There may not be a notion of between-adventure downtime in BW, and depending how it's run the PCs might never get a chance to sit back and relax for a bit - but that doesn't deny that downtime as a universal aspect* of RPG play, it only says that this particular table has chosen to exclude it. Same thing as running an RPG without any combat. It can be done, and has been I'm sure, but the doing of such doesn't remove combat as a universal aspect of RPG play. You've tried to establish this; from here athletic comptitions are a form of combat. They might not use the same mechanics, but the idea of striving to defeat someone else (or several someone elses) is still combative. Both of these examples mix elements of combat and social together - the swordplay one in particular uses combat as an action to generate a social result on success. Seems fine from here. :) Because the aspects-of-play idea goes way, way beyond just 80's style D&D. * - if I call them 'aspects' instead of 'pillars' does that help? :) [/QUOTE]
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