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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7579498" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>The qualification "in games" is redundant. <em>Preclusion</em> does not equate to <em>inclusion</em> in any circumstance.</p><p></p><p>This is self-contradictory - <em>they're not a puzzle, they're just something to work out so as to better succeed in the game</em>!</p><p></p><p>Playing my character as ignorant of something that I, the player, am not ignorant of is a textbook example of <em>alienation</em>!</p><p></p><p>You played with Gygax and co?</p><p></p><p>The only player posting in this thread who played D&D back in the mid-70s, as far as I know, is [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]. What you are describing is not "the earluy days of D&D" - it's the sort of "world simulationist" style that emerged in the late 70s and which, at that time, would be especially associated with systems like RQ and C&S.</p><p></p><p>AbdulAlhazred has posted that it's hard to know what was going on and how early GMs (including Gygax and Arneson) were reconciling wargamng with <em>being a character</em>. My own view is that <em>nothing</em> in their game texts, in the scoring rules for the tournament modules, in accounts of tournament play, etc suggests that players were expected to pretend their PCs were ignorant of monster vulnerabilities that the players themselves knew. And this is reinforced by such things as the Moldvay Basic rulebook (p B3) instructing new players to read the Monster chapter.</p><p></p><p>The bottom line is that it's impossible to engage in "skilled play" when you're deliberately holding back from taking what you know to be the skilled decision.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Adding to what Aldarc said: <em>metagame thinking</em>, according to the 4e DMG, is to make in-character decisions that treat the game as a game. This can also be called a form of "breaking the 4th wall". Imputing knowledge to my PC isn't doing this - it's simply a part of PC building.</p><p></p><p>I could play my PC as ignorant of what a crossbow is, if I wanted to, but not doing so is not metagaming. Likewise for trolls. (This is another thing that [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] has elaborated on not far upthread.)</p><p></p><p>Alternatively, from p 9 of the 4e PHB: "Through your character you can interact with the game world in any way you want."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is no such rule in 4e D&D.</p><p></p><p>The text you quote from p 11 of the 4e DMG advises the GM, in some circumstances, to provide a player with information. It doesn't instruct the GM, either expressly or by implication, to regulate what a player decides his/her PC knows.</p><p></p><p>The fact that you read it the latter way, and assert a GM's unilateral authority to decide what is or isn't reasonable for a PC to know, appearrs to demonstate a desire, as GM, to dominate the fiction and to tell the players how to play their PCs and how to approach the game. That's fine if that's what you and your table enjoy, but (i) there is little support for it in the 4e rules taxt, and (ii) surely it can't be surprising that some other posters would look at that and see "Mother may I" and railroading.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7579498, member: 42582"] The qualification "in games" is redundant. [I]Preclusion[/I] does not equate to [I]inclusion[/I] in any circumstance. This is self-contradictory - [I]they're not a puzzle, they're just something to work out so as to better succeed in the game[/I]! Playing my character as ignorant of something that I, the player, am not ignorant of is a textbook example of [I]alienation[/I]! You played with Gygax and co? The only player posting in this thread who played D&D back in the mid-70s, as far as I know, is [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]. What you are describing is not "the earluy days of D&D" - it's the sort of "world simulationist" style that emerged in the late 70s and which, at that time, would be especially associated with systems like RQ and C&S. AbdulAlhazred has posted that it's hard to know what was going on and how early GMs (including Gygax and Arneson) were reconciling wargamng with [I]being a character[/I]. My own view is that [I]nothing[/I] in their game texts, in the scoring rules for the tournament modules, in accounts of tournament play, etc suggests that players were expected to pretend their PCs were ignorant of monster vulnerabilities that the players themselves knew. And this is reinforced by such things as the Moldvay Basic rulebook (p B3) instructing new players to read the Monster chapter. The bottom line is that it's impossible to engage in "skilled play" when you're deliberately holding back from taking what you know to be the skilled decision. Adding to what Aldarc said: [I]metagame thinking[/I], according to the 4e DMG, is to make in-character decisions that treat the game as a game. This can also be called a form of "breaking the 4th wall". Imputing knowledge to my PC isn't doing this - it's simply a part of PC building. I could play my PC as ignorant of what a crossbow is, if I wanted to, but not doing so is not metagaming. Likewise for trolls. (This is another thing that [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] has elaborated on not far upthread.) Alternatively, from p 9 of the 4e PHB: "Through your character you can interact with the game world in any way you want." There is no such rule in 4e D&D. The text you quote from p 11 of the 4e DMG advises the GM, in some circumstances, to provide a player with information. It doesn't instruct the GM, either expressly or by implication, to regulate what a player decides his/her PC knows. The fact that you read it the latter way, and assert a GM's unilateral authority to decide what is or isn't reasonable for a PC to know, appearrs to demonstate a desire, as GM, to dominate the fiction and to tell the players how to play their PCs and how to approach the game. That's fine if that's what you and your table enjoy, but (i) there is little support for it in the 4e rules taxt, and (ii) surely it can't be surprising that some other posters would look at that and see "Mother may I" and railroading. [/QUOTE]
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