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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 7579585" data-attributes="member: 23751">And yet you keep using preclusion as inclusion.It's not.  A puzzle is a specific kind of information seeking game.  Not everything you don't know and seek to find out is a puzzle.No it's not.  A textbook example of alienation would also apply to me and my players, and yet there is no alienation at all.  Your textbook has failed.I don't need to.  I have his words explicitly stating that, as well as early play with multiple DMs who didn't play that way.D&D has been going for about 45 years now.  At this point the first 10-15 years would be early play, and I played during that period.  I started in 1983, so not too long after those mid 70s.This is just not true.  You can be skilled in play, learning how best to go through the game world to minimize dangers.  Searching for traps everywhere, learning where secret doors are more likely to be placed, and so on, without relying on metagame knowledge.  Inputting knowledge to gain an unfair advantage over a monster is gaming the system, which is treating the game as a game.  Even if you just seek to avoid having to "learn" something you as the player already know, that is also treating the game as a game.That's just disingenuous.  You know very well that you cannot have your character interact with the game world in "any way you want."  My 1st level fighter in 4e cannot interact with the game world via the 15th level wizard power Bigby's Grasping Hands.  Once you know that the statement "any way you want." is false, all that remains is to figure out the limitations.  Clearly from the DMG quotes I've given, as well as preclusion not equating to inclusion, the player is limited by how the game explicitly tells him his character can interact with the world.  If there is a hole in the game, a spot where there is not inclusion or preclusion, the DM has to make the call.  It's not up to the player unless the DM has set up that playstyle and given the player that ability.It is the only rule allowing such background information to yield information, so the DM is the only one explicitly allowed to do it.  If you want to give the player the ability to do it as well, that's on you, but the game does not allow it any other way.</blockquote>

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