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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 7580193" data-attributes="member: 23751">Congrats for finding an edge case exception.&nbsp; Not that it proves anything.&nbsp; What knowledge checks?&nbsp; If I can have an uncle that knows about monsters that I have knowledge of, I can have an uncle that knows about monsters that I as a player do not have knowledge of and that he has told my PC about.&nbsp; If trying to metagame knowledge in signals to the DM that the players don't want to pretend not to know a weakness, then having an uncle tell you about the new monster signals the DM that the players do not want to lack knowledge of monster weaknesses.Yes, the challenge is in fact beating the troll.&nbsp; That does not change just because we don't metagame.&nbsp; Nor is the player deliberately making a sub-optimal action declaration.&nbsp; The reality is that the player is making an optimal action declaration for the knowledge his PC has.&nbsp; There's probably nothing sub-optimal going on.&nbsp; I suppose he might be making a sub-optimal declaration based on what his PC knows, but not bringing in metagame knowledge has nothing to do with whether the choice is optimal or not.Yes, there 100% is genuine discovery going on.&nbsp; I am discovering what my PC knows or does not know.&nbsp; Prior to the encounter with the troll I did not know the answer.&nbsp; You don't get to rob me of that genuine discovery.By bringing in player knowledge, it's no longer about PC vs. troll, it's player vs. game. It's what you know vs. what the game has in front of you.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 7580193, member: 23751"] Congrats for finding an edge case exception. Not that it proves anything. What knowledge checks? If I can have an uncle that knows about monsters that I have knowledge of, I can have an uncle that knows about monsters that I as a player do not have knowledge of and that he has told my PC about. If trying to metagame knowledge in signals to the DM that the players don't want to pretend not to know a weakness, then having an uncle tell you about the new monster signals the DM that the players do not want to lack knowledge of monster weaknesses. Yes, the challenge is in fact beating the troll. That does not change just because we don't metagame. Nor is the player deliberately making a sub-optimal action declaration. The reality is that the player is making an optimal action declaration for the knowledge his PC has. There's probably nothing sub-optimal going on. I suppose he might be making a sub-optimal declaration based on what his PC knows, but not bringing in metagame knowledge has nothing to do with whether the choice is optimal or not. Yes, there 100% is genuine discovery going on. I am discovering what my PC knows or does not know. Prior to the encounter with the troll I did not know the answer. You don't get to rob me of that genuine discovery. By bringing in player knowledge, it's no longer about PC vs. troll, it's player vs. game. It's what you know vs. what the game has in front of you. [/QUOTE]

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