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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7580964" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>And the player would also be aware of the choice and could play to it if desired.</p><p></p><p>Never played it, but I hear Call of Cthulhu has a similar inevitability to it. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>And because it's a long-standing group I know exactly what I have: one player in particular who will push for any in-fiction advantage he can get (though at times they all will to some extent); and other players who will be resentful should this squeaky-wheeling get someone any extra grease.</p><p></p><p>My means of shutting some of this down is to make backgrounds (other than the most basic ones) random.</p><p></p><p>Even when a book's still being written the author almost certainly has some clue as to what makes each significant character tick and a bare-bones idea about its background. As Aragorn has come up as an example I'll use him: at what point did JRRT decide Aragorn would be a hidden king? (my guess is it came pretty early on, before pen was seriously put to paper)</p><p></p><p>The sense I'm getting from some in here is that yes, it always has to be approved if the system allows it.</p><p></p><p>As do I, but on this issue I answered the 'why not?' question about 35 years ago. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>How could this be so is only one of the questions that will arise, however, and probably the easiest to answer.</p><p></p><p>Much harder if not impossible to answer is the question "What would have happened differently in the fiction had this been known all along, at least by that PC's player and the DM?"; and that's always the very first question that leaps to my mind. And the problem is that if anything would or even might have happened differently in the fiction then what actually did happen has just been rendered invalid, along with everything since that might have been affected by this initial difference (an in-fiction butterfly effect, as it were). Put another way, it retroactively causes those sessions to have been largely a waste of everyone's time at the table; wich I think we can all agree is hardly a desirable outcome. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>(side note: this is also why allowing PCs access to any sort of controllable time travel is a Bad Idea; I learned this one the hard way a few campaigns back)</p><p></p><p>Yes, by informing the player that it's far too late to be making a past-fiction-altering decision like that. However, if one must insist on allowing it, then...</p><p></p><p>All of these can be done provided a) the answer to a preceding question "WHY is this being revealed now?" passes muster (e.g. it's not being done just to gain some immediate advantage either in the fiction or at the table) and b) there's no obvious place where knowledge of this by either the PC's player or DM would or could have had any impact on what has gone before in the played fiction.</p><p></p><p>Get past those - which ain't easy - and yes, then we're into exactly the questions you ask here. But it's point b) where most such things will run aground, unless the campaign has only just started.</p><p></p><p>As a GM it sure wouldn't excite me if I didn't know about it ahead of time as now I have to stop and think about any point b) headaches this is going to cause.</p><p></p><p>As a player the excitement comes from having made the decision back at char-gen and then roleplaying keeping it secret (I've done this numerous times - played a character with some hidden but very significant thing to it e.g. a hidden class); but the GM would always be in on it. There'd be no excitement in just coming up with it on the spur of the moment and dropping it in like a bombshell - unless my goal is to be an asshat and disrupt things.</p><p></p><p>Sure (other than potential interruptons e.g. wandering monsters), that's how it'd go - with one exception: I'd first ask if they do anything while she's gone other than just wait. For all I know they might want to send another scout off in a different direction... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> If nothing, then I'd say OK, the hour's up and she's not come back - what now?</p><p></p><p>(side story: I'm reminded of a party I once played in that had serious - and justified - trust issues: four (!) hidden assassins, all operating independently, in a party of seven. We sent out a scout to check a castle they were supposed to be infiltrating; then another PC* stealthily followed the first scout to make sure she didn't turn us in, then another followed the follower (same reason), and a fourth followed the lot (I think hoping to knock off one of the other three). So, four characters - all assassins - out sneaking around while the remaining three waited behind...for a few minutes, until they decided to go around, knock on the castle's front door, and warn the occupants of the approaching sneaks before hightailing it to the woods never to be seen again. End of party.....)</p><p></p><p>* - I think this one was my PC; it was 30 years ago and my memory's a bit fuzzy. Either that or I was the third sneak.</p><p></p><p>My position is that they shouldn't, and that their knowledge would thus equal that of their PCs.</p><p></p><p>And if they do know, it's still on them to play as if they don't.</p><p></p><p>Quite a bit of the drama is in the not knowing, and in the steps taken to try to find out, and in the possible consequences of so doing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7580964, member: 29398"] And the player would also be aware of the choice and could play to it if desired. Never played it, but I hear Call of Cthulhu has a similar inevitability to it. :) And because it's a long-standing group I know exactly what I have: one player in particular who will push for any in-fiction advantage he can get (though at times they all will to some extent); and other players who will be resentful should this squeaky-wheeling get someone any extra grease. My means of shutting some of this down is to make backgrounds (other than the most basic ones) random. Even when a book's still being written the author almost certainly has some clue as to what makes each significant character tick and a bare-bones idea about its background. As Aragorn has come up as an example I'll use him: at what point did JRRT decide Aragorn would be a hidden king? (my guess is it came pretty early on, before pen was seriously put to paper) The sense I'm getting from some in here is that yes, it always has to be approved if the system allows it. As do I, but on this issue I answered the 'why not?' question about 35 years ago. :) How could this be so is only one of the questions that will arise, however, and probably the easiest to answer. Much harder if not impossible to answer is the question "What would have happened differently in the fiction had this been known all along, at least by that PC's player and the DM?"; and that's always the very first question that leaps to my mind. And the problem is that if anything would or even might have happened differently in the fiction then what actually did happen has just been rendered invalid, along with everything since that might have been affected by this initial difference (an in-fiction butterfly effect, as it were). Put another way, it retroactively causes those sessions to have been largely a waste of everyone's time at the table; wich I think we can all agree is hardly a desirable outcome. :) (side note: this is also why allowing PCs access to any sort of controllable time travel is a Bad Idea; I learned this one the hard way a few campaigns back) Yes, by informing the player that it's far too late to be making a past-fiction-altering decision like that. However, if one must insist on allowing it, then... All of these can be done provided a) the answer to a preceding question "WHY is this being revealed now?" passes muster (e.g. it's not being done just to gain some immediate advantage either in the fiction or at the table) and b) there's no obvious place where knowledge of this by either the PC's player or DM would or could have had any impact on what has gone before in the played fiction. Get past those - which ain't easy - and yes, then we're into exactly the questions you ask here. But it's point b) where most such things will run aground, unless the campaign has only just started. As a GM it sure wouldn't excite me if I didn't know about it ahead of time as now I have to stop and think about any point b) headaches this is going to cause. As a player the excitement comes from having made the decision back at char-gen and then roleplaying keeping it secret (I've done this numerous times - played a character with some hidden but very significant thing to it e.g. a hidden class); but the GM would always be in on it. There'd be no excitement in just coming up with it on the spur of the moment and dropping it in like a bombshell - unless my goal is to be an asshat and disrupt things. Sure (other than potential interruptons e.g. wandering monsters), that's how it'd go - with one exception: I'd first ask if they do anything while she's gone other than just wait. For all I know they might want to send another scout off in a different direction... :) If nothing, then I'd say OK, the hour's up and she's not come back - what now? (side story: I'm reminded of a party I once played in that had serious - and justified - trust issues: four (!) hidden assassins, all operating independently, in a party of seven. We sent out a scout to check a castle they were supposed to be infiltrating; then another PC* stealthily followed the first scout to make sure she didn't turn us in, then another followed the follower (same reason), and a fourth followed the lot (I think hoping to knock off one of the other three). So, four characters - all assassins - out sneaking around while the remaining three waited behind...for a few minutes, until they decided to go around, knock on the castle's front door, and warn the occupants of the approaching sneaks before hightailing it to the woods never to be seen again. End of party.....) * - I think this one was my PC; it was 30 years ago and my memory's a bit fuzzy. Either that or I was the third sneak. My position is that they shouldn't, and that their knowledge would thus equal that of their PCs. And if they do know, it's still on them to play as if they don't. Quite a bit of the drama is in the not knowing, and in the steps taken to try to find out, and in the possible consequences of so doing. [/QUOTE]
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