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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7586340" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>So do I. That narration doesn't tell us anything about the effect the fireball will have on targets - it leaves it open that some may remain conscious, some may die, and yet others may be knocked out.</p><p></p><p>This is not an accurate description of <em>fireball</em> in any edition of D&D. (It may be accurate for Chainmail - I'll defer to [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] on that.) In any edition of D&D, <em>fireball</em> is a <em>ball of fire</em>, but we don't know whether or not it's lethal until we determine what effect it has on those who are caught within it. And that requires (although, in 4e, is not exhausted) comparing the damage it inflicts to the hit points of those affected.</p><p></p><p>Perhaps by <em>lethal</em> you mean <em>dangerous</em> or even <em>really dangerous</em>. In which case a 4e fireball is as dangerous as any other fireball in any other version of D&D. It can incinerate those caught within it! (A fireball does <em>fire </em>damage, and as we are told in the PHB (p 55), the <em>fire</em> keyword signifies <em>[e]xplosive bursts, fiery rays, or simple ignition.</em>)</p><p></p><p>To reiterate, whether or not the fireball is lethal can't be known until we know whether or not it kills someone.</p><p></p><p>If a fireball does 37 hp of damage to a target who has 38 hp remaining, then clearly it is <em>not</em> - in respect of that person, at least - a lethal ball of fire, as it didn't kill them! The best we can say is that the fireball <em>may</em> have been lethal, in that under some not-too-improbable circumstances it may have killed them. Which, as I already said, is true in 4e as much as in any other edition of D&D.</p><p></p><p>And? A fireball in 4e can be reasonably expected to cause death. The fact that, on some occasions, it doesn't doesn't meant that it <em>wasn't/I] something that could be reasonably expected to cause death. I mean, you've already indicated that in your D&D games sometimes some characters find themselves caught in fireballs, or red dragon breath, and yet don't die.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>This makes no sense. The rule is: when the person burned by the fireball is reduced to zero hp, the player whose PC cast the fireball decides what happens to the victim. So the player gets to decide whether or not the fireball is lethal in its effects. This doesn't require "time travel". It isn't a decision about the nature of the fire. It's a decision about the nature of its effects on this affected person.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>You accept the proposition that not every caught in the area of a fireball must die. The player has the authority (under the rules of the game) to decide whether or not <em>this</em> target of the fireball who was reduced to zero hp is such a being. It's not <em>time travel</em>. It's not even necessarily <em>director stance</em>, although that's how we tend to treat it at my table: nothing precludes a particular table taking the view that the caster can control the flames as they explode and lick at the target, modulating their intensity so as to cause unconsciousness but not death.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Also, I'm not sure how much "fluff bunny sauce" you've interacted with, but to me it doesn't sound like something that would knock someone unconscious. You seem to have this odd conception of knocking someone out as a <em>gent;le</em> act rather than the violent act that it is.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Furthremore to this, even following Maxperson's order doesn't have the implication he thinks it does, because his "steps" make assumptions about the lethality of a fireball which aren't supported by an edition of D&D, each of which allows that some people caught in fireballs may not die.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>And this has nothing to do with the "fortune in the middle" aspect of death saves - which, I agree with you, mean that you can't confidently narrate lethal wounds until that whole process is sorted out.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>What I mean is that the 4e approach to determining whether or not a fireball kills someone or knocks them out could be applied in Moldvay Basic, which has no death save mechanic. Because the only difference between this 4e rule and the Moldvay one is that, in Moldvay, zero hp = death whereas the 4e mechanic says <em>zero hp = death or unconsciousness (attacking player's choice)</em>.</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>Absolute hogwash!</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>In my Rolemaster games, the PCs would knock out foes regularly: sometimes because attacks would reduce their concussion hits below the "conscious" threshold without reducing them below the "dying" threshold; sometimes in virtue of an appropriate result on a crit table. </em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>In my 4e game, the PCs knock out foes in virtue of their players' entitlement to choose the result which occurs at zero hp. This doesn't depend on any notio of "lethal" vs "non-lethal" damage. It just requires a rule which says <em>when your PC drops a foe to zero hp, choose whether the result is unconsciousness or death</em>. It's a very simple rule which does not require any notion of "non-lethal damage", "non-lethal attacks", "fluffy bunny sauce", "time travel", or any of the other spurious notions you are introducing into its analysis.</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7586340, member: 42582"] So do I. That narration doesn't tell us anything about the effect the fireball will have on targets - it leaves it open that some may remain conscious, some may die, and yet others may be knocked out. This is not an accurate description of [I]fireball[/I] in any edition of D&D. (It may be accurate for Chainmail - I'll defer to [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] on that.) In any edition of D&D, [I]fireball[/I] is a [I]ball of fire[/I], but we don't know whether or not it's lethal until we determine what effect it has on those who are caught within it. And that requires (although, in 4e, is not exhausted) comparing the damage it inflicts to the hit points of those affected. Perhaps by [I]lethal[/I] you mean [I]dangerous[/I] or even [I]really dangerous[/I]. In which case a 4e fireball is as dangerous as any other fireball in any other version of D&D. It can incinerate those caught within it! (A fireball does [I]fire [/I]damage, and as we are told in the PHB (p 55), the [I]fire[/I] keyword signifies [I][e]xplosive bursts, fiery rays, or simple ignition.[/I]) To reiterate, whether or not the fireball is lethal can't be known until we know whether or not it kills someone. If a fireball does 37 hp of damage to a target who has 38 hp remaining, then clearly it is [I]not[/I] - in respect of that person, at least - a lethal ball of fire, as it didn't kill them! The best we can say is that the fireball [I]may[/I] have been lethal, in that under some not-too-improbable circumstances it may have killed them. Which, as I already said, is true in 4e as much as in any other edition of D&D. And? A fireball in 4e can be reasonably expected to cause death. The fact that, on some occasions, it doesn't doesn't meant that it [I]wasn't/I] something that could be reasonably expected to cause death. I mean, you've already indicated that in your D&D games sometimes some characters find themselves caught in fireballs, or red dragon breath, and yet don't die. This makes no sense. The rule is: when the person burned by the fireball is reduced to zero hp, the player whose PC cast the fireball decides what happens to the victim. So the player gets to decide whether or not the fireball is lethal in its effects. This doesn't require "time travel". It isn't a decision about the nature of the fire. It's a decision about the nature of its effects on this affected person. You accept the proposition that not every caught in the area of a fireball must die. The player has the authority (under the rules of the game) to decide whether or not [I]this[/I] target of the fireball who was reduced to zero hp is such a being. It's not [I]time travel[/I]. It's not even necessarily [I]director stance[/I], although that's how we tend to treat it at my table: nothing precludes a particular table taking the view that the caster can control the flames as they explode and lick at the target, modulating their intensity so as to cause unconsciousness but not death. Also, I'm not sure how much "fluff bunny sauce" you've interacted with, but to me it doesn't sound like something that would knock someone unconscious. You seem to have this odd conception of knocking someone out as a [I]gent;le[/I] act rather than the violent act that it is. Furthremore to this, even following Maxperson's order doesn't have the implication he thinks it does, because his "steps" make assumptions about the lethality of a fireball which aren't supported by an edition of D&D, each of which allows that some people caught in fireballs may not die. And this has nothing to do with the "fortune in the middle" aspect of death saves - which, I agree with you, mean that you can't confidently narrate lethal wounds until that whole process is sorted out. What I mean is that the 4e approach to determining whether or not a fireball kills someone or knocks them out could be applied in Moldvay Basic, which has no death save mechanic. Because the only difference between this 4e rule and the Moldvay one is that, in Moldvay, zero hp = death whereas the 4e mechanic says [I]zero hp = death or unconsciousness (attacking player's choice)[/I]. Absolute hogwash! In my Rolemaster games, the PCs would knock out foes regularly: sometimes because attacks would reduce their concussion hits below the "conscious" threshold without reducing them below the "dying" threshold; sometimes in virtue of an appropriate result on a crit table. In my 4e game, the PCs knock out foes in virtue of their players' entitlement to choose the result which occurs at zero hp. This doesn't depend on any notio of "lethal" vs "non-lethal" damage. It just requires a rule which says [i]when your PC drops a foe to zero hp, choose whether the result is unconsciousness or death[/i]. It's a very simple rule which does not require any notion of "non-lethal damage", "non-lethal attacks", "fluffy bunny sauce", "time travel", or any of the other spurious notions you are introducing into its analysis.[/I] [/QUOTE]
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