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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7586764" data-attributes="member: 42582">No I'm not. I'm talking about the actual game situation that is under discussion.Contra [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], there is no rule in 4e that says, or permits the result, that fireballs do &quot;non-lethal damage&quot; ie that fireballs are incapable of killing. In 4e there is only damage, and all damage is capable of killing, and fireballs do damage.Maxperson is arguing that because someone can survive a fireball even though, mechanically, that character's hp have dropped to zero, therefore the fireball must be non-lethal. That argument makes no sense and is without foundation, for two reasons. First, things that are &quot;lethal&quot; in the sense of having the potential to kill don't always kill, and Maxperson has already acknowledged that this is the case for fireballs every version of D&amp;D. Second, because zero hp in 4e doesn't mean dead/dying in the absence of &quot;non-lethal&quot; damage. That (or some variant of that) is a 3E rule. In 4e, for NPCs and creatures under the GM's control, zero hp means the player of the character whose attack reduced the being to zero hp gets to decide whether the being dies or is knocked unconscious. And because it's already accepted by everyone in this thread that some &quot;lethal&quot; attacks - in the sense of being dangerous and having the potential to kill -don't actually kill, there is nothing unrealistic or at all remarkable that, in 4e, some people hit by fireballs lose consciousness but do not die.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7586764, member: 42582"] No I'm not. I'm talking about the actual game situation that is under discussion. Contra [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION], there is no rule in 4e that says, or permits the result, that fireballs do "non-lethal damage" ie that fireballs are incapable of killing. In 4e there is only [I]damage[/I], and all damage is capable of killing, and fireballs do damage. Maxperson is arguing that [I]because someone can survive a fireball[/I] even though, mechanically, that character's hp have dropped to zero, therefore the fireball must be non-lethal. That argument makes no sense and is without foundation, for two reasons. First, things that are "lethal" in the sense of having the potential to kill don't always kill, and Maxperson has already acknowledged that this is the case for fireballs every version of D&D. Second, because zero hp in 4e doesn't mean [I]dead/dying in the absence of "non-lethal" damage[/I]. That (or some variant of that) is a 3E rule. In 4e, for NPCs and creatures under the GM's control, zero hp means [I]the player of the character whose attack reduced the being to zero hp gets to decide whether the being dies or is knocked unconscious[/I]. And because it's already accepted by everyone in this thread that some "lethal" attacks - in the sense of being dangerous and having the potential to kill -don't [I]actually[/I] kill, there is nothing unrealistic or at all remarkable that, in 4e, some people hit by fireballs lose consciousness but do not die. [/QUOTE]

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