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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7599554" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>Yeah, the setting and mechanics of BitD are very tightly interwoven to produce the desired effects. The mechanics lean into the setting, and vice versa. It's actually very impressive.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, and this is true of any game, ultimately. In BitD however, there are actual mechanics that come into play...ratings with other factions within the city will fluctuate, and the crew can find themselves at war with another gang. Or their Heat can rise to the point where the cops show up at their door, and so on. During each Downtime Phase, the crew has to roll for an Entanglement, and then something happens that they have to deal with. There's a chart that determines what it is, but the expectation is that whatever the result is, that the GM shapes the Entanglement around what's already happened. So, if the Entanglement is "Reprisals" or "Show of Force" then the GM should use a Faction with whom the crew already has a negative standing and then have that Faction make a move on the crew. </p><p></p><p>So BitD promotes the serial element of ongoing matters and continuing relationships, where as with D&D that stuff is up to the DM and players to incorporate. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Seems reasonable. That's largely how we handle it in D&D 5E with my group. We kind of assume certain default expectations....people have a waterskin and so on. We only track significant gear like weapons and magic items and the like. </p><p></p><p>Here's what I'll say on how my play in these two systems shakes out. D&D has a more detailed system that we largely ignore in favor of a mix of abstraction and assumed basics. BitD Has a simpler system that creates a potentially compelling aspect of play.</p><p></p><p>As for the realism of either system....I really don't favor one over the other in that respect. It's more about how they play out at the table.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know if the threat of the dog is reduced, really. On one hand, I see what you're saying in that the player could decide to have a bit of gear that might resolve the issue out of hand (although I expect there'd likely still be a roll of some sort, the use of the meat would likely make that roll less difficult for the PC), and that seems an easier option, so therefore the challenge is lesser. I can understand that logic. </p><p></p><p>But, I think it becomes more of a question of is the loss of the inventory spot worth making this challenge easier? The limited availability of such slots makes it a question of resource management rather than just a question of what skill to use (stealth or attack). So in that sense, it's potentially more meaningful. Sure, the risk of harm may be removed, but the player may find out later that the inventory slot could have been put to use toward something perhaps more significant. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why do you consider it a metagame decision? It really is very much in the game....it's only the timing of that decision that is different. If a player in D&D said before the Score "I want to pack a hank of beef in case there are any guard dogs or the like watching this place" you would allow it, right? So in BitD it's the same decision. The Character is not acting on outside of game info....the player is acting on inside the game info. I don't think this is what we would typically consider "metagaming" when that's brought up. </p><p></p><p>To use your own phrase; how does this: "a player-driven in-the-fiction decision by the PC as to how to deal with the dog" not apply to the BitD example? What part of your statement is untrue for BitD? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, I don't think we agree at all that this is metagaming in what would be considered the "traditional" sense. The player is making a decision for his character about how to address a challenge in the game. </p><p></p><p>The character is in no way acting on knowledge outside of the fiction.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 7599554, member: 6785785"] Yeah, the setting and mechanics of BitD are very tightly interwoven to produce the desired effects. The mechanics lean into the setting, and vice versa. It's actually very impressive. Sure, and this is true of any game, ultimately. In BitD however, there are actual mechanics that come into play...ratings with other factions within the city will fluctuate, and the crew can find themselves at war with another gang. Or their Heat can rise to the point where the cops show up at their door, and so on. During each Downtime Phase, the crew has to roll for an Entanglement, and then something happens that they have to deal with. There's a chart that determines what it is, but the expectation is that whatever the result is, that the GM shapes the Entanglement around what's already happened. So, if the Entanglement is "Reprisals" or "Show of Force" then the GM should use a Faction with whom the crew already has a negative standing and then have that Faction make a move on the crew. So BitD promotes the serial element of ongoing matters and continuing relationships, where as with D&D that stuff is up to the DM and players to incorporate. Seems reasonable. That's largely how we handle it in D&D 5E with my group. We kind of assume certain default expectations....people have a waterskin and so on. We only track significant gear like weapons and magic items and the like. Here's what I'll say on how my play in these two systems shakes out. D&D has a more detailed system that we largely ignore in favor of a mix of abstraction and assumed basics. BitD Has a simpler system that creates a potentially compelling aspect of play. As for the realism of either system....I really don't favor one over the other in that respect. It's more about how they play out at the table. I don't know if the threat of the dog is reduced, really. On one hand, I see what you're saying in that the player could decide to have a bit of gear that might resolve the issue out of hand (although I expect there'd likely still be a roll of some sort, the use of the meat would likely make that roll less difficult for the PC), and that seems an easier option, so therefore the challenge is lesser. I can understand that logic. But, I think it becomes more of a question of is the loss of the inventory spot worth making this challenge easier? The limited availability of such slots makes it a question of resource management rather than just a question of what skill to use (stealth or attack). So in that sense, it's potentially more meaningful. Sure, the risk of harm may be removed, but the player may find out later that the inventory slot could have been put to use toward something perhaps more significant. Why do you consider it a metagame decision? It really is very much in the game....it's only the timing of that decision that is different. If a player in D&D said before the Score "I want to pack a hank of beef in case there are any guard dogs or the like watching this place" you would allow it, right? So in BitD it's the same decision. The Character is not acting on outside of game info....the player is acting on inside the game info. I don't think this is what we would typically consider "metagaming" when that's brought up. To use your own phrase; how does this: "a player-driven in-the-fiction decision by the PC as to how to deal with the dog" not apply to the BitD example? What part of your statement is untrue for BitD? Yeah, I don't think we agree at all that this is metagaming in what would be considered the "traditional" sense. The player is making a decision for his character about how to address a challenge in the game. The character is in no way acting on knowledge outside of the fiction. [/QUOTE]
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