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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MPA2000" data-source="post: 7472412" data-attributes="member: 6682107">Great thread.  I just want to add my two or three cents in here.  All of the named monsters (Asmodeus, Orcus, etc.) are listed by HP only, that means at best they can only attack as a 16 HD monster (per the chart), that being said Deities and Demigods expressively states that in their own planes, they are treated as Lesser Gods. Using special powers for lesser Gods in that book or Manual of the Planes or both.Secondly, DMs pretty much destroyed AD&D 1 and 2, by allowing players to attain ridiculous powers, such as +20 magical swords and stacking bonuses ala Hammer of Thunderbolts. At best a magical weapon should never be more powerful than any found in the DM Guide.  Off the top of my head +5 was it and that was for the Holy Sword or whatever it was called and the Hammer of Thunderbolts.   While there were some magic/artifacts that probably allowed players to gain attributes higher than 18, it certainly should not be permanent nor something their God bestowed on them.  Off the top of my head, Girdles or potions of giant strength only gave you damage bonuses right?Thirdly, MM I and II had monsters that were just fine, powers wise. It was the PC's that were too powerful and thus made everything look beatable. Back to what I said before, at a certain level, dungeoning is no longer worthwhile.  DM's have to change their calculus to expand adventures to other worlds and planes. Heck  maybe even different Dimensions altogether, in a Sci Fi adventure or Gamma type of planet. It's possible that a God of any level could be a good challenge to any PC in their own realm, but if all of the PC's have artifacts of incredible powers and are 50th levels, lot even a Greater God might sweat a little.Basic D&D, got it right. 18 was the absolute maximum ability scores.  Artifacts had real devastating affects against mortals who held on and continued to use them. +5 was the absolute max for any weapon or armor/shield enchantment. Even for Artifacts. Yet after a certain level, they too become to much of a challenge, and the DM has to expand his adventures outside this plane, or even dimension. Unlike the Gods, in AD&D, the Immortals are not to be trifled with.   AD&D has had to keep changing the powers of the Gods in order to make them seem unbeatable.The Immortals right off the top, even as the lowest of the Immortals, an initiate is still a 15HD monster, with a meager 75 hit points, you would think it's goose would be cooked if it lost initiative to even one high level, fully equipped PC.  Not so. An Immortal is forbidden to take action against a presumptuous Mortal on the Prime Plane, unless it is his worshipper.  But lets say that some mid to high level characters managed to foil or in the process of foiling an Immortal's plot, and direct action was necessary. The Immortal would simply wait or cause a situation where the mortals would have to go to another plane to for one reason or another.  Then the Immortal can take action.  So all Immortals have the following minimum stats:1) Immune to all mortal magic.  Well all of your spell casters are useless unless they have an Artifact.2) Need a +5 weapon to harm them.  Very few non-fighters will have one of these.3) Takes the minimum damage from any non-artifact weapon.  So that weapon would only be capable of doing the +5 weapon damage, +any strength damage, + minimum dice roll (so 1d6 sword, does only 1 pt of damage before adding modifiers).4) All immortals begin with AC0 without any armor as they go up in rank it gets higher, but of course those who like to fight will have armor and shields. 5) Aura attacks- All immortals can simply flaunt their divinity and make mortals faun over them, if they fail their savings throws and they don't get any modifier bonuses!6)Immortal spells are far more potent- Mortals save at a -2, and they are not limited the 20d6 spell damages that mortal spellcasters are. So a 30 level Immortal will fire off a 30d6 fireball as many times as he wants.7) Immortals have a natural Anti-Magic shell around them that effects all magic items (including Artifacts) and spells coming within it's range, but doesn't affect the Immortals magic at all. The antimagic shell has a percentage chance of 50% for Initiates all the way up to 90% for Hierarchs.  So there is a 50% chance any that weapon won't affect the Initiate Immortal at all. 8) Finally the most dangerous spell that the Immortals have is called "Reduce Saving Throw".  Yep just like it says. The immortal can spend what is called "Power Points", and make any mortal suffer a reduction in their saving throws.   So that those 36th level PCs facing the Initiate could see their 2 saving throws all increase to 15 or even 20, if the Immortals fires off a spell!So if DM high level characters, expand your horizons. Maybe they can defeat gods in AD&D, since the system allows it.   Perhaps, you should bring in an Immortal from the Mystara universe to show them what real divine might is.  You don't have to convert Immortals either, you can play them as is in the AD&Dverse.</blockquote>

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