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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MPA2000" data-source="post: 7479587" data-attributes="member: 6682107">I think this was a rhetorical question, but since you brought up my favorite character class, I am compelled to talk about it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Much of your original post talks about challenges for characters and how some monsters are not so much of a threat as they present conditions/traps (ie save or die, withering/aging, energy drain etc). Some of the posts there after also admit that they will enhance the monster to make them more of a challenge for the PC's.   That goes back to what I said before about DM's making PC's too powerful.  Although you have never seen anyone with a +20 sword, doesn't mean it hasn't happened, anymore than I have never seen a 100 level PC, but clearly commenters in the old Dragon's magazine referenced them.  Not saying you implied anything, but it is worth me addressing.Now as far as Immortals possibly being used as "tougher monsters".  The general rule is a monster is anything the PC's can fight and kill. As a DM isn't it wise to understand that some players play D&D for the swashbuckling? They want sword fights or spell battles.  Some not so much.  Many DM's not so much either.  Any major conflict that somehow draws the attention of an Immortal, is just that. Could it be unfair? Yep. Immortals get the same benefits as PC's when it comes to magical bonuses to hit and armor class.  It's not supposed to be a fair fight: They are godlike beings.   Does that mean they will always win? No.  Nor should they be treated as Bosses. A Boss would be one or more of their underlings, who may or may not know that they are being used by said Immortal.That being said, I think we (we= players, DM's and the Game writers) tend to make godlike beings (Gods and Immortals) more forward thinking than they should be. If you look at the myths, the gods could be tricked, bamboozled or killed (not Olympians).  In D&D we like to think that there is no way you can sneak in a god's realm, even when that does happen in the myths. We like to think gods have all of these pre-ready machinations, at the ready, in case there are some unwanteds who show up to cause mischief.   It's my understanding that gods and Immortals have all of the same faults as mortals. They make mistakes. They have emotional and psychological issues (if you observe them in the myths).So it is highly likely that a group of adventurers could surprise a god or Immortal and catch him by himself. For the simple fact, their existence as godlike beings have given them a false sense of security.  Clearly an Immortal never has to fight a mortal or even a group of adventurers, if he doesn't want to. He could just summon underlings and teleport away.  Another example is AD&D 1e Thor:  Thor could use the spells he has access to, but he should rely on his hammer and strong right arm settle any dispute in the heavens or midgard.  Even when it would make sense for him to do otherwise. So anyway, I hope no one takes offense to anything I said.   Most of you are likely smarter than I am. But if you ever want to no more about the Immortal Character class let me know.</blockquote>

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