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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 7963670" data-attributes="member: 93670">No not just the utility of wildshape, it is about combat for moon druid who gets stuff to make it so while non-with moon druids barely a ribbon for others who get stuff to bebetter casters.&nbsp; &nbsp; If the improvement does not notable change it from ribbon to something else meaningful for the remaining core caster part then what is it offsetting?&nbsp;&nbsp; You don't strip font of magic/metamagic/pact boon/arcane recovery from sorcerer/warlock/wizard base classes, but with druid those kinds of things are built into the archetypes themselves &amp; stripped as a result.&nbsp; If your &quot;improving&quot; wildshape as a replacement to the things being dropped that improvement needs to have at least a meaningful utility rather than just fluff.&nbsp; You bring up &quot;utility&quot;... and that's fine if that's your goal, but very contrived situations like escaping from prison after the rogue type is killed &amp; the not very common situation of wanting a birds eye view or something are you expecting the new wildshape to give?&nbsp; Sure it &quot;might be useful&quot; to fly at second level for an hour, but you can't bring anything or anyone &amp; really cant do a whole lot someone else can't also do with their owl familiar at zero risk to themselves unless you have some super flying critter with a low cr in mind?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 7963670, member: 93670"] No not just the utility of wildshape, it is about combat for moon druid who gets stuff to make it so while non-with moon druids barely a ribbon for others who get stuff to bebetter casters. If the improvement does not notable change it from ribbon to something else meaningful for the remaining core caster part then what is it offsetting? You don't strip font of magic/metamagic/pact boon/arcane recovery from sorcerer/warlock/wizard base classes, but with druid those kinds of things are built into the archetypes themselves & stripped as a result. If your "improving" wildshape as a replacement to the things being dropped that improvement needs to have at least a meaningful utility rather than just fluff. You bring up "utility"... and that's fine if that's your goal, but very contrived situations like escaping from prison after the rogue type is killed & the not very common situation of wanting a birds eye view or something are you expecting the new wildshape to give? Sure it "might be useful" to fly at second level for an hour, but you can't bring anything or anyone & really cant do a whole lot someone else can't also do with their owl familiar at zero risk to themselves unless you have some super flying critter with a low cr in mind? [/QUOTE]

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