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A lesson I hope WotC learns from Paizo (with regards to 5E)
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<blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6223429" data-attributes="member: 95493"><p>The point you originally made was that 300 page book scares people off. Now you are changing that point ans so I'll accept that you meant what you are NOW saying instead of "I showed them a 300 page book and want of a game died."</p><p></p><p>I just want to add first that 300 pages isn't a problem by itself. It really isn't. Even in the game you are describing you can and probably should just explore the book as needed. My comment about having a 100 page book but needing a half dozen others in order to play the full game still stands. With that said let's get onto what you are now saying.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Bold is me and added for reference:</p><p>(1) I think you are probably right that 3e required, or at least benefitted from an experienced player at the helm. 3e was a big system to get into but that level of depth and difficulty to get into is neither unique to 3e, worst in 3e, nor applicable in a discussion about "300 pages = bad" or about 5e in general.</p><p>(2) The price of the books is major concern for ALL players, not new ones or inexperienced ones. Those inexperienced people will want to buy them less (have less reason to drop so much money to start) but I think that is MORE of a reason to have everything in a single book when possible. If the DM suggests you might need the PHB to play the game, then getting the PHB or not can be the decision. But (and this assumes same amount of pages and cost over all) if the DM says you need the PHB, RPH, the GMR, CPT, FMA, and so on in order to play the game - that is a significant MORE of an investment for new players than one book, even if they have the same number of pages over all. Some people will benefit from this piecemeal approach but I don't think it helps over all.</p><p>(3) Yes, but I KNOW that not even all DMs need to have read the books in order for the game to be successful. I was one, so was my best friend, so were a half dozen others. In fact when I was learning to play 3e we had a meat grinder where the rule was you couldn't play until you DMed - which meant running a brutal game with VERY limited knowledge of the game. And do you know what happened? Everyone survived and everyone loved the meat grinder because of the unpredictability. Like I said, it is best if the rules are there and you not need them than if the rules aren't and you do, or else it might take a DC 35 check to hide behind a barrel. So, yes, I disagree that you need to read the book through first. It is probably best not to, but instead go looking for things as you advance, so as not to completely mess things up in your mind or forget what you already know. Just like if you are running a game as complex as monopoly, it is probably not easiest to read all the rules before play and then start the game. It is probably best to start the game while reading the rules so you understand what the pieces mean, when you pick them up, their power in the game, and so on.</p><p>(4) We are talking of 3e here? 30 minutes to create a character? Wow. I'm impressed. I know vets who take hours every time. I don't see what that has to do with the length of the book through, more the rules of the system - which I do happen to agree is a problem.</p><p>(5) <s>Every edition of Dnd</s>, no scratch that, every RPG in existence requires this. And?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, except for the fact that people know this going in. You expect a different system than WoW. One with more complexity and diversity than WoW. If you think 300 pages in a book means that people should be playing WoW instead then I think you kind of miss the point.</p><p></p><p>Now, I agree that there is an entry barrier to joining this particular hobby. Absolutely, 100%. But there is similar barriers to joining wargames (Warhammer for example) where you have to buy the minis, paint them, understand the rules and tactics enough to win. Or when playing WoW if you want to become one of the best in the game it takes hours, days of grinding in swamps and collecting quests that no one is reading. No game is without a entry barrier to get up to grade. And that is before you get REALLY good at it. I also agree that there should be ways of ramping up to this. But I think that if someone is getting scared off by 300 pages in a single book ("do we have to read all that?") that maybe this hobby isn't right for them - because that 300 pages is not even the tip of the iceberg, its the snowflake falling onto that iceberg.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, I think you were mostly talking about 3e here. I got into 3e it cost me (after discount) about 20 bucks (but otherwise would have been 35-40 I think) and was a 300 (ish) page book. I bought that book several weeks after playing, up until then all I had to worry about was my character sheet. Even when I got the PHB I only ever read the bits I was directly working with. Now, I eventually did go pick up the DMG, MM and others. But that was when I was an experienced player. My point is that no new player should be made to expect (by their DM or WotC or anyone) that they have to spend 100 bucks and read 1000 pages in order to enjoy the hobby. If they think that their DM should explain that it is plainly false. The DM on the other hand probably has to get there, and so I can understand why that is a much bigger investment for DMs but as stated earlier (I think/hope it was in this thread) the DMs are the ones buying the books - they're the ones WotC needs to cater to in order to keep it going. But then again, if you don't want to spend that money/read that many pages then you probably aren't going to want to learn the game well enough/spend as much time required to be a great DM either. They kind of go hand in hand. However, this why I'm a big fan of beginner boxes (even though I'll likely never end up buying one).</p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree. With the need of a really good starter set. And a good migration plan. And with WotC being bad <s>at their jobs</s> at creating a really good starter set in order to do this. It doesn't change that a really good starter set would be a MASSIVELY great idea however.</p><p></p><p>Now with that said, basic DnD was a hit. But everyone talks about Advanced DnD, right? You and me aren't inexperienced players. So the 300 page book isn't scaring YOU off, is it?</p><p></p><p>------</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm telling you that the day that WotC decides to EVER abandon print entirely is the day they 100% lose me as a customer - quality of the game or not. I need the hard cover books. In 50 years when I'm old and on my deathbed I'll still have my copies of DnD books so I can play, and I won't have had to update my cell-chip in order to get the most updated version.</p><p></p><p>There are certainly tools, character builders, and maybe even most player/customization books that I can accept in pdf. But I will not accept and simply will not buy the game if it goes purely digital. I won't. I don't have a tablet and even if I did I don't want all my books there. This is one of the few experiences in my life that are left where I want a analogue version.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Quite possibly. I'm not suggesting they ONLY make physical copies either. I'm saying they have to make SOME books physical or else I won't buy. I don't really need a physical copy of books I won't be using on a regular basis - that's why I have pdfs of many books already for quick access. But there is no replacement for good, quality hardcopies. Especially not at the table. Having a searchable format is great, but that is the difference between buying the book and using the SRD/PRD. I want something that I can hold in my hands and flip through when the power is out. I want something I can index with my fingers instead of with page numbers. And if WotC or even Paizo or anyone doesn't offer me this format then I really can't play their game - as I said digital media at the table is death.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tovec, post: 6223429, member: 95493"] The point you originally made was that 300 page book scares people off. Now you are changing that point ans so I'll accept that you meant what you are NOW saying instead of "I showed them a 300 page book and want of a game died." I just want to add first that 300 pages isn't a problem by itself. It really isn't. Even in the game you are describing you can and probably should just explore the book as needed. My comment about having a 100 page book but needing a half dozen others in order to play the full game still stands. With that said let's get onto what you are now saying. Bold is me and added for reference: (1) I think you are probably right that 3e required, or at least benefitted from an experienced player at the helm. 3e was a big system to get into but that level of depth and difficulty to get into is neither unique to 3e, worst in 3e, nor applicable in a discussion about "300 pages = bad" or about 5e in general. (2) The price of the books is major concern for ALL players, not new ones or inexperienced ones. Those inexperienced people will want to buy them less (have less reason to drop so much money to start) but I think that is MORE of a reason to have everything in a single book when possible. If the DM suggests you might need the PHB to play the game, then getting the PHB or not can be the decision. But (and this assumes same amount of pages and cost over all) if the DM says you need the PHB, RPH, the GMR, CPT, FMA, and so on in order to play the game - that is a significant MORE of an investment for new players than one book, even if they have the same number of pages over all. Some people will benefit from this piecemeal approach but I don't think it helps over all. (3) Yes, but I KNOW that not even all DMs need to have read the books in order for the game to be successful. I was one, so was my best friend, so were a half dozen others. In fact when I was learning to play 3e we had a meat grinder where the rule was you couldn't play until you DMed - which meant running a brutal game with VERY limited knowledge of the game. And do you know what happened? Everyone survived and everyone loved the meat grinder because of the unpredictability. Like I said, it is best if the rules are there and you not need them than if the rules aren't and you do, or else it might take a DC 35 check to hide behind a barrel. So, yes, I disagree that you need to read the book through first. It is probably best not to, but instead go looking for things as you advance, so as not to completely mess things up in your mind or forget what you already know. Just like if you are running a game as complex as monopoly, it is probably not easiest to read all the rules before play and then start the game. It is probably best to start the game while reading the rules so you understand what the pieces mean, when you pick them up, their power in the game, and so on. (4) We are talking of 3e here? 30 minutes to create a character? Wow. I'm impressed. I know vets who take hours every time. I don't see what that has to do with the length of the book through, more the rules of the system - which I do happen to agree is a problem. (5) [s]Every edition of Dnd[/s], no scratch that, every RPG in existence requires this. And? Right, except for the fact that people know this going in. You expect a different system than WoW. One with more complexity and diversity than WoW. If you think 300 pages in a book means that people should be playing WoW instead then I think you kind of miss the point. Now, I agree that there is an entry barrier to joining this particular hobby. Absolutely, 100%. But there is similar barriers to joining wargames (Warhammer for example) where you have to buy the minis, paint them, understand the rules and tactics enough to win. Or when playing WoW if you want to become one of the best in the game it takes hours, days of grinding in swamps and collecting quests that no one is reading. No game is without a entry barrier to get up to grade. And that is before you get REALLY good at it. I also agree that there should be ways of ramping up to this. But I think that if someone is getting scared off by 300 pages in a single book ("do we have to read all that?") that maybe this hobby isn't right for them - because that 300 pages is not even the tip of the iceberg, its the snowflake falling onto that iceberg. Again, I think you were mostly talking about 3e here. I got into 3e it cost me (after discount) about 20 bucks (but otherwise would have been 35-40 I think) and was a 300 (ish) page book. I bought that book several weeks after playing, up until then all I had to worry about was my character sheet. Even when I got the PHB I only ever read the bits I was directly working with. Now, I eventually did go pick up the DMG, MM and others. But that was when I was an experienced player. My point is that no new player should be made to expect (by their DM or WotC or anyone) that they have to spend 100 bucks and read 1000 pages in order to enjoy the hobby. If they think that their DM should explain that it is plainly false. The DM on the other hand probably has to get there, and so I can understand why that is a much bigger investment for DMs but as stated earlier (I think/hope it was in this thread) the DMs are the ones buying the books - they're the ones WotC needs to cater to in order to keep it going. But then again, if you don't want to spend that money/read that many pages then you probably aren't going to want to learn the game well enough/spend as much time required to be a great DM either. They kind of go hand in hand. However, this why I'm a big fan of beginner boxes (even though I'll likely never end up buying one). I agree. With the need of a really good starter set. And a good migration plan. And with WotC being bad [s]at their jobs[/s] at creating a really good starter set in order to do this. It doesn't change that a really good starter set would be a MASSIVELY great idea however. Now with that said, basic DnD was a hit. But everyone talks about Advanced DnD, right? You and me aren't inexperienced players. So the 300 page book isn't scaring YOU off, is it? ------ I'm telling you that the day that WotC decides to EVER abandon print entirely is the day they 100% lose me as a customer - quality of the game or not. I need the hard cover books. In 50 years when I'm old and on my deathbed I'll still have my copies of DnD books so I can play, and I won't have had to update my cell-chip in order to get the most updated version. There are certainly tools, character builders, and maybe even most player/customization books that I can accept in pdf. But I will not accept and simply will not buy the game if it goes purely digital. I won't. I don't have a tablet and even if I did I don't want all my books there. This is one of the few experiences in my life that are left where I want a analogue version. Quite possibly. I'm not suggesting they ONLY make physical copies either. I'm saying they have to make SOME books physical or else I won't buy. I don't really need a physical copy of books I won't be using on a regular basis - that's why I have pdfs of many books already for quick access. But there is no replacement for good, quality hardcopies. Especially not at the table. Having a searchable format is great, but that is the difference between buying the book and using the SRD/PRD. I want something that I can hold in my hands and flip through when the power is out. I want something I can index with my fingers instead of with page numbers. And if WotC or even Paizo or anyone doesn't offer me this format then I really can't play their game - as I said digital media at the table is death. [/QUOTE]
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