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Message: <blockquote data-quote="delericho" data-source="post: 6223645" data-attributes="member: 22424">Yes. And I'm absolutely convinced that that's true.We're talking about a bunch of mid-teen boys, with a set of interests that matched up pretty much exactly with what you'd expect in potential new players. They were enthusiastic about getting into the game. And the moment they saw those rulebooks we had a problem.It appears that we've reached a point where, when introducing the game to new players, and for best results, you should hide the rulebooks. Which is absurd.No, indeed. It was true of 1st Edition, 2nd, 3e, 4e... Oh, and Pathfinder, of course.Which is fine, when adding new players to an existing group. It's not so good when putting together a new group, and it's also problematic when our new player, having played a couple of sessions then wants to dig into what the rules really say, and is presented with a large, and unapproachable, tome.The difference is that, as an experienced player, I already know I enjoy fantasy RPGs, so it's considerably less of a risk. A newbie has no such assurances.There's a better way:Firstly, present a single, short book that contains everything you need to play. So, it has all the key rules, it has four playable races and four playable classes. (And, frankly, you should be able to do that in 100 pages. Add a basic primer on DMing and a basic set of monsters, and you should still be able to fit it all in 256 pages.) Ask them to buy and read that.Then, for people who want more, provide more options, but present those in both discrete and self-complete modules. So, if they really like playing their Fighter, they pick up the "Fighter's Handbook" that contains as many optional extras for Fighters as the designers can fit. And so, even for the player who really wants it, there's still only two books to buy. But all they need is that one Core Rulebook.But even better than that is the model allowed by the DDI - everyone buys that single Core Rulebook, and then they're encouraged to take out a subscription to the giant database of extra material, from which they can use as much, or as little as they want. But all they need is that one Core Rulebook.And don't tell me it can't be done, because I'll point you to B/X D&D. Hell, even the "Rules Cyclopedia" isn't much larger than I've suggested, and that contains way more than is needed.I was looking for a minimum estimate. Frankly, 30 minutes for a new player is already too long - and expecting them to use a pre-gen isn't much better.And it all adds up. If that's the minimum investment before you get to start having fun, then it's a problem.No, actually I think you've missed my point, although perhaps it was buried in the wall of text in my previous post.My point is not that people should prefer WoW, it's that, faced with that 300-page rulebook, very many of them will prefer WoW. Because it requires a fraction of the investment, and it provides an experience that is "good enough" on all metrics and actually better on some (notably the GUI).Indeed. Which is why Games Workshop's sales strategy is to get people in, get them to very quickly invest in several thousand dollars of miniatures, and then quietly forget about them. Because they know that the vast majority of potential gamers will quickly lose interest, and will never get all those minis painted, and will never read the rules. So they're not interested in them as gamers, they're interested in them as customers.Yes, but I'm not talking about the barrier to "get up to grade". I'm talking about the barriers before you get to start having fun.The 3e Core Rulebooks cost $20 each in their first printing, rising to $30 with the third printing. So, that's $90 for the three. Between them, they have a page count in excess of 700 pages.The 3.5e Core Rulebooks cost either $30 or $35 each, and each had a page count of 320 pages. So that's $90 or $105 for the three, and 960 pages.The 4e Core Rulebooks cost $35 each, or $104.95 for the set of three. They had a page count of 832 pages between them.Pathfinder has two required books, the Core Rulebook at $50 and 576 pages, and the Bestiary at $40 and 320 pages.In all cases, that's close to $100 for the required books, and close to 1,000 pages of reading. It is, of course, possible to get deals and discounts to reduce the costs. But since I'm much more concerned about the required reading...On that we agree. Given past performance, though, it may be worth having a backup plan in case we don't get one.Scare? No. But the thought of having to wade through another 1,000 pages in order to play yet another minor variation of "pretend to be an elf" is not an attractive prospect. Especially since those 1,000 pages strongly suggest we're going to get another massively rule- and option-heavy game, and my tastes now run to something much lighter and faster. Basically, I want D&D Saga Edition.</blockquote>

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