A lower LA ghost?

Corsair

First Post
Here is the thing:

I want to make/find a lower LA ghost-like template. Some sort of incorporeal spirit or undead who can possess other creatures. I don't want or need any of the Su attacks or abilities, just possession, manifestation, and maybe telekinesis. Is there anything like this out there, or should I try to butcher the template down? I'd like to get down to +2 LA for campaign reasons.

I don't have Ghostwalk, but are there any things in there like this? Are their any other options which are not necessarily ghosts or undead that can possess people?
 

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If you are looking fowards to modify the existent template...

Look at the Dicefreak's Ghost template, it doesn't have a stated LA but it's varying degrees of power can help you make something out.
 
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Also I should say I'm trying to make one that could stay in a host body indefinately (pending removal or perhaps future saving throws made on a periodic basis by the host).
 

Thoughts toward a 'spirit' template:

As Ghost, except:

Treat the spirit as manifested at all times.

Remove all the special attacks except for Telekinesis.

Replace Malevolence (Su) with Possession (Su)

Once per round, a spirit can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level equal to Hit Dice), except that it does not require a receptacle. To use this ability, the spirit must try to move into the target’s space; moving into the target’s space to use the possession ability provokes an attack of opportunity. The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 15 + spirit's Cha modifier). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same spirit's possession for 24 hours, and the spirit cannot enter the target’s space. If the save fails, the spirit vanishes into the target’s body.

Remove Rejuvenation and Turn Resistance.

Abilities

Same as the base creature, except that the spirit has no Constitution score.

That should be about +2ish, maybe.

-Stuart
 

Ghostwalk has an effectively LA +0 ghost template: you become incorporeal, but not undead, and you have no innate ability to manipulate physical objects (unless you take a feat just for it).

You become limited to taking more levels in only Eidolon or Eidoloncer (ghost classes with fast ghost ability or spellcasting progression, respectively), though, and if your Eidolon/Eidoloncer levels ever exceed your levels from other sources, you die permanently (well, until somebody uses Raise Dead on you or something).
 


Corsair said:
I'll definately find out if one of my friends has Ghostwalk. Does Libris Mortis have anything that might be useful?

Actually, one of the feats in there is pretty much invaluble. Ghostly Grasp--requires Cha 13 and incorporeality, lets you manipulate objects as if you were corporeal. There's plenty of other good stuff that doesn't actually require that you be dead, just some of the traits associated with it.

Best of all, the Eidolon/Eidoloncer classes specifically say that if raised, you immediately get to swap out levels in them (and feats and skills gained during those levels) for 'normal' classes/etc.
 

The main problem with a LA +0 ghost template (or even a low LA ghost template) are the bonuses gained via the Undead type and the Incorporeal subtype. Those two together grant:


Undead
- 12 sided HD
- no Con score
- Dark Vision 60 ft
- Immunity to all Mind Affecting Effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)
- Immunity to Death Effects, Disease, Paralysis, Poison, Sleep effects, and Stunning.
- Not subject to Critical Hits, Nonleathal Damage, Ability Drain, or Energy Drain. Immune to damage to its Physical Ability Scores as well as Fatigue and Exhaustion effects.
- Immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects).
- Uses Cha for Concentration checks
- Not at Risk of Death from Massive Damage, but when reduced to 0 hp or less it is immediately destroyed (some exceptions exist).
- Not affected by Raise Dead and Reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and True Resurrection can return undead back into the living creatures they were prior to becoming undead.
- Proficient with all natural weapons, simple weapons, and any weapon mentioned in its entry.
- Undead to not breathe, eat, or sleep.

Incorporeal
- can only be harmed by other incorporeal creatures, magical weapons, or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.
- Immune to all non-magical attack forms. Even when hit by magical weaponry ther is a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except positive energy, negative energy, force effects, and attacks made with ghost touch weapons).
- no natural armor bonus, but gains a deflection bonus equal to its charisma modifier (always at least +1)
- can pass through solid objects but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, so it cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presense of creature or objects within the square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature inside an object. In order to see normally and attack normally it must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
- attacks ignore / pass through natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects work normally against it.
- can pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air.
- cannot fall or take fall damage
- cannot be grappled or tripped, but cannot make grapples or trip attacks
- cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor subject to such attacks (bull rush, overrun, disarm, trip, grapple, etc)
- do not set off traps triggered by weight
- moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks unless it wishes to be heard
- has no strength score, so its Dexterity score applies to both melee and ranged attacks
- nonvisual senses such as scent and blindsight are either ineffective or only partly effective in regards to incorporeal creatures
- have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.



Collectively, these are a lot of bonuses. Consider for a moment a ghost Rogue 3/ Assassin 3/ Soulknife 7; this is a potent opponent. Actually, the ghost has a racial bonus of +8 to Hide and Move Silently, so I'd state that all it needs is the +4 to Disguise and Any Evil alignment to qualify for Assassin. So one level in rogue, followed by three levels in Assassin and seven levels in Soulknife, and you have a really impressive threat - +3d6 sneak attack, a couple levels of assassin spells, +2d8 psychic strike, +2 mindblade, throw mindblade, two mindblade or a greatsword mindblade, +2 equivalent enhancement to mindblade (unholy or bane, for instance), uncanny dodge, Speed of Thought, perhaps a couple psionic feats, and the various bonuses for being undead and incorporeal.

That's worth the LA +5 (or the CR +2), in my opinion. It is certainly a worthy threat for a 13th level party - and it might be able to hold its own as a member in a 16th level party. Of course, I'd probably utilize a form of LA buyoff from UA, such that it would only a be LA +4 by then - and perhaps a level behind but nearly entirely catching up. From that perspective its inability to completely hold its own at that level (as a PC) would be understandable, as it would be a 15th level character in a 16th level group (but it would be quickly catching up).


To reduce the cost for the ghost template, I suggest the following: remove the Undead type, remove the ability to interact with objects at all (that is to say, the ghost also has a 50% chance of causing no damage on a hit, rather than just the ghost having a chance of receiving no damage from a hit). Make the bonus to Cha reflect the deflection bonus regardless of its score (thus no auto +1 deflection, and a negative deflection - ie: easier to hit - with a negative Cha bonus), and remove its innate senses a) of direction (such that its speed is reduced when it cannot see) and b) of creatures / objects outside of an object - such that it cannot surprise attack creatures just beyond the edge of the wall, for instance, as it would not know any creatures were present unless it emerged.

In effect, it becomes a semi-ethereal creature that - not being undead - can be affected in a variety of ways if the attack can actually connect (poison, disease, paralysis, stunning, sleep, ability damage, energy drain, etc). It would have a Con score, as it would be alive and have a body on another plane, and it would have a Str score, although the score would be considered '---' when fighting creatures on the physical plane. On the plus side this would allow it to have feats such as Power Attack. On the negative side, it could only use such feats against creatures on the same plane as it (the Ethereal). Allow the ghost to manifest, perhaps, or possess, but it cannot have any other specials.

That, I think, would reduce the LA to only +1 or maybe +2. The CR would perhaps end up as either +0 or maybe +1.
 

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