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<blockquote data-quote="Grendel_Khan" data-source="post: 8307874" data-attributes="member: 7028554"><p>I think I remember you mentioning gun lethality in WoD before, and color me just as mystified!</p><p></p><p>Looking at VtM 2nd Edition right now (1992), and a Glock 17's base damage is 4. That's it! The average bouncer will do that with their fist. And that's not 4 damage, that's just 4 dice to roll, looking for 6's. Granted, you can add dice based on successes over the target's dodge, but a stray shot probably wouldn't take that into account. So, on average, you're doing 2 points of damage to a bystander with a stray 9mm round. And then that bystander can roll Stamina to soak, probably getting at least 1 success. So you get caught in the crossfire of a Glock shooting and...you take 1 damage. Like a painful paper cut.</p><p></p><p>Now things do get a lot spicier with shotguns, and a double-barreled one with silver shot, at that. And Vampire had some stupid explosive/fire rounds for shotguns, too. Those are a special case, to me--WW just not getting that PCs and eventually NPCs would escalate to super-special guns right away. But take that stuff away, and look at base 12-gauge shotgun damage, and I maintain that it's silly low. 8 damage per round, average of 4 damage before soak. Just really not great. And I don't mean that in relation to supernatural creatures shrugging off bullets, which fits the fiction kinda well. I mean walking into a room with your Glock blazing against a couple of people is just wacky stuff. Like lightly slapping them.</p><p></p><p>There are things they could have done to address this, like making humans unable to soak bullets/knives/etc. And maybe later editions addressed it. But when I was playing and running, guns (without special ammo) were just pathetic, even against non-supernaturals.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Grendel_Khan, post: 8307874, member: 7028554"] I think I remember you mentioning gun lethality in WoD before, and color me just as mystified! Looking at VtM 2nd Edition right now (1992), and a Glock 17's base damage is 4. That's it! The average bouncer will do that with their fist. And that's not 4 damage, that's just 4 dice to roll, looking for 6's. Granted, you can add dice based on successes over the target's dodge, but a stray shot probably wouldn't take that into account. So, on average, you're doing 2 points of damage to a bystander with a stray 9mm round. And then that bystander can roll Stamina to soak, probably getting at least 1 success. So you get caught in the crossfire of a Glock shooting and...you take 1 damage. Like a painful paper cut. Now things do get a lot spicier with shotguns, and a double-barreled one with silver shot, at that. And Vampire had some stupid explosive/fire rounds for shotguns, too. Those are a special case, to me--WW just not getting that PCs and eventually NPCs would escalate to super-special guns right away. But take that stuff away, and look at base 12-gauge shotgun damage, and I maintain that it's silly low. 8 damage per round, average of 4 damage before soak. Just really not great. And I don't mean that in relation to supernatural creatures shrugging off bullets, which fits the fiction kinda well. I mean walking into a room with your Glock blazing against a couple of people is just wacky stuff. Like lightly slapping them. There are things they could have done to address this, like making humans unable to soak bullets/knives/etc. And maybe later editions addressed it. But when I was playing and running, guns (without special ammo) were just pathetic, even against non-supernaturals. [/QUOTE]
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