A "naysayer's" review of 4E

Primal

First Post
This is a "naysayer's" honest and open-minded "review" of 4E, based on my first impressions after reading the books at a friend's place (he's one of those "fortunate ones" to get the books ahead of the release date).

First of all, in my opinion the best thing about 4E, in my opinion, is the art -- it is more evocative and beautiful and thematically "appropriate" than most of the 3E art. However, I am definitely way more disapponted about 4E than I thought I would be, since some of the stuff I've seen lately has actually felt positive and somewhat affected to my negative opinions about 4E.

Alright, I'll try to break it down into a (hopefully) coherent and consistent review:

The skill system is better and more consistent than in 3E, although I missed those "background" skills (i.e. Craft, Profession, hobbies) and I don't think I saw any reference to them in PHB? I may be wrong, though. I know they are dealt with in DMG, but I thought it would have been appropriate to have them in PHB, too, since the system might be relevant to most PCs -- at least in my group. The skill challenge system rocks, but it seems a lot more work to design a Skill Challenge properly. This will probably become easier as you "get" the system better and better with time, but I wouldn't include any Skill Challenges in my first adventures.

Most of the PHB consisted of powers and feats. What was very disappointing was the lack of options at each level -- I mean, if you're going to design a game that focuses on "combat crunch", I think you should give much more options at every level. Why not have less "power levels" but more powers at each level? Especially when it is pretty evident that they've used an elaborate system (e.g. those "keywords" they've tagged each power with) to analyze and build the powers. Having said that, it would have probably pretty easy to design a bunch of them. On the other hand, I suspect that the *Real* goal is to give a "preview" of things to come, and make everyone yearn for more powers which are released in the upcoming "Power Books" and PHBs. I can now understand why they "simplified" the crit system -- since most of the powers inflict as much (or even more) damage than 3E crits, the "math" would be brain-wracking to do on the spot. Which makes me wonder about the designers' promise to "streamline the damage system from 3E". How? You still roll, say, 3D10+12 or even 7D10+24 most of the time you hit, so I just can't see any streamlining. If anything, you now have to do 3E "Crit Math" with every power -- not to mention those marks, triggered effects (both to allies and enemies) and sliding/pushing. I liked, however, that you can only pick certain powers for certain weapons and different abilities have an effect on them, which makes a greatsword-wielder different from a hammer-wielder or a spear-wielder.

What was really weird was that you get less and less options as you progress through the Tier, until finally you practically have to choose between two Epic Destinies and a handful of Epic Feats. I would strongly disagree that the designers managed to make the game "equally fun" at all the levels -- to me it seems that just like in 3E, most "fun" and options are available only during the first 10 levels.
Even the Feats were divided by Tier, and my impression was that every race had a miserable number to pick their Racial Feats from. Where is the huge number of Feats the designers promised? Granted, there are more than in the 3E Core Books, but access to them is more restricted than in 3E. Anyway, that was my first impression. Again, I think this is due to giving everyone a "thirst for more" (i.e. to buy the supplements released later).

I have to mention Rituals separately here... they are *great* and work better than in any other edition. I just thought: "Why couldn't they think of all this years ago?". However, I strongly disliked that *everyone* can try them -- I would have preferred to keep for "spellcasting" classes only, but this is actually easy to house-rule, if it bothers you.

Monsters... I was very frustrated with the MM, as I think running monsters have become more complicated for "less-tactically inclined" DMs like me. With most of the monsters, you have to track/remember a dozen powers/effects/marks -- add the "hazards" and obstacles/terrain rules to that, and you'll be in dire straits, unless your mind works like a computer. Anyway, that's how I feel. In addition to all the added mechanical complexity, some of the monster "types" (and their powers) seemed just... odd? Weird? Too "exception-based" and unique? Maybe I'm perceiving the whole game from a different perspective, but like I've posted on a number of threads, I just can't wrap my mind around the system. I liked that DMG offers "quick" templates for statting NPCs as "PC-ish" and also some monster templates, but I would have wanted a *CONCRETE*, step-by-step example of how you start from a unique concept and progress to design your own monsters. Or how you modify an existing stat block to fit your concept. Maybe I just didn't notice that part? I *think* there was something about "look up a creature of an appropriate level and model the abilities from there", but that's not what I mean. I'm a veteran DM, and I shudder at the thought of novice DMs trying to digest this system. The trap system is far more complicated than in 3E, and there was no actual rules for designing them yourself -- unless I missed it, too?

Then the DMG... I've heard very positive comments about it -- someone even claimed that it's the "best RPG book for DMs out there", but frankly, I can't understand why it is so "stellar" in quality. Pretty much useless and more than obvious remarks about how to run a campaign. I've seen better adventure/campaign design instructions on the Internet than in this book. In any case I didn't see anything better written than the stuff in 3.5 DMG 2. Fallcrest is a nice little town, but I think it is vastly inferior in writing, content and ideas to Saltmarsh in DMG 2. In fact, most DMs I know would come up with the same amount of ideas and 'fluff' (probably with better and more evocative *names*, at least) than in the whole 'Nentir' chapter in about an hour or two. The way it's written and those ideas and names are just too... basic and unevocative. It feels like someone truly wrote in a couple of hours, and it was deemed "good enough for DMG". Not to mention that there are no building maps at all, which, at least, DMG 2 had. Along the same lines, the 'Kobold Hall' module was probably the worst module I've seen in a while, and the maps were just horrendous. Is this the new "rule of nature" in 4E -- every room *must* consist of square forms and lines? No "natural" forms or "oddly" shaped or even circular chambers anywhere? I hope not. But the thing is... why not include a better module with decent maps, if you're going to include one if the core books? To me this was a waste of pages. IMO the Fallcrest town map was the only good thing in this chapter.

As I already mentioned, my overall impression was that I'm definitely disappointed at 4E. Although it handles some game mechanics better and/or in more "streamlined" fashion than 3E, combats and hazards/objects/traps seem to be much, much more complex than in 3E. Not to mention running and creating monsters or NPCs. I wouldn't want to DM 4E (it just feels too damn intimidating, and this is my honest opinion), but I might try it as a player *when* all the "Power Books" and PHB 2 are available. Then the game may have enough options for powers and feats for my taste.

Magic items function, probably, a bit better with daily/encounter powers imbued in them, and make them more "dynamic" than in 3E. Yet I *hated* those armor names... I mean, 'Godplate'? 'Elderhide'? Smack too much of Diablo or WoW to my taste.

Summa summarum: I think more "action-minded" gamers feel right at home with this system -- especially if you overlook some of the slight inconsistencies in the game. I wouldn't recommend it to 'simulationists' or gamers who look for "realism" (yes, even in a fantasy world) in the setting or the mechanics. I think story-oriented and imaginative DMs who really "get" the new monster/NPC/hazard level-based design system *and* are good organizers and/or have a good memory for details, might get the most of out of 4E. Definitely I wouldn't recommend the system for novice DMs, because there's so much to digest here -- even for a veteran of all the editions.
 

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My comments on your review, just going through the paragraphs:

I really liked the art, too. Some very evocative stuff.

I'm a big fan of the SWSE skill system, so seeing it carried over into 4E pleases me. I felt the section on Skill Challenges in the DMG gave a great footing on running them, and I have three spots in my first adventure earmarked for them. It looked complicated at first, then I read all the examples in the Non-Combat Encounters chapter of the DMG, and I can't wait now.

I can't help but compare the options a player had in 3E vs 4E when talking about powers. My fiance made a ranger last night; she can use a basic ranged attack (+7 to hit and 1d10+6 damage!), and has an at will to shift 1 before or after any attack, another to fire two shots at 1-2 targets, losing her Dex bonus on damage in exchange, she can shift 3 before or after an attack once per fight and do double damage on the hit, or she can fire two shots at two targets, using the higher of two hit rolls for both, again doing double damage, once per day. I'm positive that her 3E ranger didn't have that many options at 1st level, and probably not even my 6th. (Maybe at 6th.) Anyway, I guess I see more options than you did, but I respect that you wanted more.

I'm totally agreed on Rituals--great system. You basically have to take a MultiClass feat to get rituals though--due to the prereqs, so I'm fine with who can attempt them. Anyone could use a ritual scroll, but I wish that fighter luck with his Religion skill check. :D

Monsters. I've looked at that book the least so far, primarily because I'm already very familiar with the layout. I'm again just comparing 3E to 4E here--because I don't remember the 3E MM giving as much advice on tactics as the 4E MM does. As far as tracking marks, and other stuff, it hasn't been an issue for me yet, so I'm comfortable already. I have that little magnetic initiative board, and it's great. All my bad guys have a letter on their name (like hobgoblin A, B, and C) and all my players have a number. If hobgoblin A is marked by player 1, I put a 1 next to his line. If he marks player 1 back, then I put an A by their line. Most of the time, it's so obvious I don't bother.

I don't know what you expected from the DMG, but wow, the bar you set was really, really high from your opinions expressed. I thought this was one of the best introductions to DMing I've ever seen. At the risk of sounding snarky, I've been DMing for 24 years, I don't EXPECT to learn much from a DMG--I just need all the tables and encounter generation stuff, ya know? What's the problem with kobolds (fantastic miners) mining out square chambers? I can count on one hand the number of structures I've entered in the last year that had non-rectangular chambers, or wasted an ounce of space. Anyway, you want round chambers, make round chambers. The random dungeon generator includes round and irregular rooms. The kobolds live in a mined out lair, not a natural cave. Anyway, I'll just have to think you're crazy re: DMG, and we'll leave it at that.

Magic items are way better than 3E for me, and if you don't like the armor names, make new names. That's half of campaign building--renaming stuff.

My summary? A lot of what I didn't like about 3E is gone. A lot of what I liked about 3E is still there. A lot of house rules I already used are now the standard. Exception-based rules stomp the :):):):) out of the feat-stacking, "you didn't multiclass!?" nonsense of 3E. But I agree with you, if you want ultra-realism, play Rolemaster. :D

I would absolutely recommend 4E for new DMs though. I'm most excited about the influx of new DMs that we'll see.
 

well considering the intent of the books (introducing new people to the game) and the otherwise very rave reviews of dmg, and for the most part the rest. I think you might have to give up one of your begining adjectives

you could be either honest or openminded.

this reads as a very honest review however

if your saying your being open minded I think your lying, openminded doesn't mean openminded for you, but rather going in with little or no preconcieved idea of how you are going to judge, and considering your bitching about the dmg "stating the obvious" like it should to newb dm's and then compeigning about how no newb dm could ever start with this book, I think your a little less open minded than you think (perhaps you could replace it with for the most part neutral language using or something like that.

L
 

I had a chance to read the books at a friend's house. I feel that 4e is the best incarnation of D&D ever! I wrapped up my Pathfinder game last night and it will be the last time I ever play 3rd edition. And good riddance.

I thought the art in the PHB is fantastic. I thought the options were good for race and class, and far better than in any prior edition of D&D.

I love the monster design and the fact that I can once again run monsters out of the MM without having to change them in any way and without needing to reference any other books. Something I found mostly impossible in 3e.

And the DMG is fantastic. As an experienced DM, not a lot new to me. Obviously. But the advice, the approach, the information on encounter, monster, and story design is all fantastic and exactly what a newbie should have.
 

Primal said:
Most of the PHB consisted of powers and feats. What was very disappointing was the lack of options at each level -- I mean, if you're going to design a game that focuses on "combat crunch", I think you should give much more options at every level.
This sentence makes me unable to take your review seriously. I mean, it simply isn't true. At every level there seems to be at least two of the following things to choose: feat selection, ability score boost selection, power selection, class/paragon/epic ability selection.

Given that it is in these areas that we can reasonably expect to see further development from later books, the amount of options at each level is staggering.
On the other hand, I suspect that the *Real* goal is to give a "preview" of things to come, and make everyone yearn for more powers which are released in the upcoming "Power Books" and PHBs.
Welcome to capitalism. Still, the PHB is a pretty big book.
I can now understand why they "simplified" the crit system -- since most of the powers inflict as much (or even more) damage than 3E crits, the "math" would be brain-wracking to do on the spot. Which makes me wonder about the designers' promise to "streamline the damage system from 3E". How? You still roll, say, 3D10+12 or even 7D10+24 most of the time you hit, so I just can't see any streamlining. If anything, you now have to do 3E "Crit Math" with every power -- not to mention those marks, triggered effects (both to allies and enemies) and sliding/pushing.
An actual example would be nice. Seriously, why should we not think that you are pulling these numbers out of thin air and grossly over exaggerating the prevalence of this kind of "math".
 

A couple of points.

1. Why no mention about the pages BEFORE the "roll"-playing section of the PHB. Many complaints were lodged that 4E is just a WoW clone and is only about combat, but comparing what a new player sees when they open the 4E PHB versus previous editions PHB, which one do you think will actually teach the player something about roleplaying?

2. The DMG is useless for anyone who has been DMing for 20 years. The 4E DMG is priceless for anyone who still feels uncomfortable and/or is a new DM. Seriously, I know for many of us it is hard to believe but some of us have players that do want to try their hand at DMing but I would never give them the DMG as it was structured for DMs that quite frankly, didn't need it.

3. Powers per level. Notice the class table earlier. Basically you get "bling" every time you level. There's a feat, a power, an increase in ability or a combination of the two. Messing up that progression might have lead to dead levels. Another reason might be if you increase the "options" at every level, but don't increase the NUMBER of options taken, then you might end up with less character diversification.

4. I think you're forgetting one major point. The fact that since every class and race is supposed to get equal focus, each class is going to get less options. I mean, take for example the arcane/divine classes in 4E compared to the martial classes.

If you were coming from a spellcasting class, 4E hit you with a 2x4 in cutting down your choices at 1st level. If you were coming from a non-spellcaster, you wouldve sworn you hit the jackpot as even from 1st level, the list of options for say a rogue is pretty large.

As an aside, be careful about this calculations as I've noticed many people not realizing that FEAT bonuses don't stack.

With regard to options, I'm not seeing the lack of them since at paragon Tier most classes have 2-3 paths which means you actually upon reaching 10th level have more options than at 1st level (just for the cost of a feat, you can select any paragon path).

There's also the fact that many of the lower level options are STILL valid choices at higher Tiers. For example ,many of the feats are still good choices even at 15th level or higher.

Example: Toughness/Weapon Focus. Would you select Toughness in 3.x after level 4? Same thing with Weapon Focus (let's assume for the moment it wasn't a prerequisite feat for the good stuff) after level 8? How about something like the Jack of all Trades feat? Translating that to 3.x (a feat that gives a +2 bonus to any skills you have no SP in) would see no use AFTER level 10.

The same thing applies to many of the powers as well. Take the classic wizard spell, Sleep. At levels 1-4 in previous editions, Sleep was one one the best bangs for your buck but as you increased in level, it hit its cap. Not so for Sleep in 4E. It's good all the way to the end it seems.

Rituals - I don't think you need to houserule Rituals as a guy who takes the time to get Trained in Heal/Arcana and then takes Ritual Caster is NOT your regular Joe Blow.

I think you might;ve missed the section on dealing damage per level and effects for a monster since in 4E, I KNOW what the math is they used to get those values. Exactly what is the math behind most monsters in previous editions? Feel. Again, a newbie DM I think would have an easier time designing a 4e monster from scratch than say a 3.x monster.

Ex: In 3.x, the monster guidelines stats are determined by FORM whereas in 4E, the monster guidelines are determined by FUNCTION.

Honesly, I think 4E is a much easier to DM system than 3E. I honestly can't see where we disagree so strongly.
 

Kwalish Kid said:
This sentence makes me unable to take your review seriously. I mean, it simply isn't true. At every level there seems to be at least two of the following things to choose: feat selection, ability score boost selection, power selection, class/paragon/epic ability selection.

Given that it is in these areas that we can reasonably expect to see further development from later books, the amount of options at each level is staggering.

Maybe every choice you can make gives you more or less the same benefit? That would match with what I read from other lucky ones.
 

Primal said:
I think more "action-minded" gamers feel right at home with this system -- especially if you overlook some of the slight inconsistencies in the game. I wouldn't recommend it to 'simulationists' or gamers who look for "realism" (yes, even in a fantasy world) in the setting or the mechanics. I think story-oriented and imaginative DMs who really "get" the new monster/NPC/hazard level-based design system *and* are good organizers and/or have a good memory for details, might get the most of out of 4E.

I'm a 4e advocate, and I think this conclusion is very objective, and spot on.
 

On the point about 'not enough options' in a way you are correct, there is usually one or two 'silos' for a class (cha pally, str pally) that given only what is in the phb will be hard to break out of. But the phb is very long (imo.) with little useless fat to trim (unless you are NEVER going to have a warlock or a dragonborn) so in order to be 'fair' and add say another power for each level to all classes they would have had a bppk that was quite a few pages longer. Not that I would not have liked to get a huge tome out of the gates but it would have cost more or made them less money and probably been less well tested.

So yeah I can understand what you mean about that and the feats (although I think people are looking for the really powerful feats we had in 3x) but unless you want to start your campaign at level 25 or play 5 different types of pallys before more books come out I think there is plenty here to work with to make fun characters in a fun game.
 

Logos7 said:
well considering the intent of the books (introducing new people to the game) and the otherwise very rave reviews of dmg, and for the most part the rest. I think you might have to give up one of your begining adjectives

you could be either honest or openminded.

this reads as a very honest review however

if your saying your being open minded I think your lying, openminded doesn't mean openminded for you, but rather going in with little or no preconcieved idea of how you are going to judge, and considering your bitching about the dmg "stating the obvious" like it should to newb dm's and then compeigning about how no newb dm could ever start with this book, I think your a little less open minded than you think (perhaps you could replace it with for the most part neutral language using or something like that.

L

Hmmm... yes, I'll admit that the part about DMG was perhaps a bit prejudiced, but that was due to my disappointment -- most of the stuff wasn't above anything written in DMG 2, and I remember people exclaiming that 4E DMG is one of the best RPG books ever published. For a "newbie" DM, who hasn't read any DM/GM books ever or run a campaign, it's probably full of juicy and useful stuff. But I wouldn't call it the "most useful DM book ever". Even the "DM Toolbox" was a bit disappointing, but I *did* like the "quick" class templates.

And diseases work better now, although the "condition track" looks a bit weird when compared to all the other tables/stat blocks in the game.
 

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