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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Echoes" data-source="post: 4257249" data-attributes="member: 1187">As someone who was largely at the opposite end of the spectrum -- a 4e 'yeasayer' if you will -- I think some of the negatives expressed here have definite merit.Having now been able to read the books as well, I like what I see overall.  My main sticking point is that, even in one readthrough of the rules, I can see a lot of stuff I want to houserule right off the bat, and that wasn't necessarily something that I saw right away with 3.x.  Of course, by the end of the 3.x what I was playing was hardly recognizeable to the original rules because of all the tacked on house rules...so maybe it's a good thing?As for magic, I like the idea of rituals but I don't like the way they've been done.  Some things should just not be rituals.  Tenser's Floating Disk is the most glaring example.  If a wizard can conjure rams of force energy at first level I don't think it's a stretch to think he might be able to make a floating disk of force.  I understand that wizards did have to be taken down a notch in terms of power to balance things a bit more appropriately (this has been the case since 2nd edition or earlier - I mean, there was a reason wizards progressed more slowly than any other class in that edition).I like the general streamlining of the skill system, but I think that some skills, like Alchemy, are sorely missing and I will have to bring back in.  Or use the 2e secondary skill system merged with 3e's professions.  Or something.  Skill challenges are a great idea and I will make a lot of use of those, but I'm disappointed that theren't aren't more skill options out of the gate.I'm also disappointed about equipment and magic items.  I'm going to use the 3.x phb for adventuring equipment, because my group has always been one that loves to make clever use of mirrors, spyglasses, and caltrops, and I think that's fun.  There's very little in the way of that type of equipment listed.  As for magic items, the naming conventions are terrible, as has been touched on, but beyond that I think a lot of the items are just too generic.  And the list of wondrous items and potions is, all things considered, a joke.  It's like this little teaser they threw in so that you would go out and buy the arms and equipment guide, and in every other edition that kind of book was strictly optional - here's its required.I have many other small and large qualms about 4e having read the books -- extended rest recovery of all hitpoints and surges, the fact that so many powers are just differing amounts of "push x, number[w] damage, +1 to y," etc. -- but I still think the system is intriguing, and I can't make a true judgement call until I run a game next week.  But in summary, I'd say that my first readthrough of the books was a disappointing one (the DMG in particular, though I recognize its value to those with little experience DMing), and made me less excited about the long-term value and excitement of this edition.I still want to play it, and I think it will be fun, and I think it will "feel" like D&D (claims to the contrary on that are pretty absurd in my opinion) -- but I think I'm going to have to spend a lot of time adjusting things to suit my taste, which falls under some mix of 2e and 3e and all kinds of things in between.</blockquote>

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