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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The-Magic-Sword" data-source="post: 9239819" data-attributes="member: 6801252">I think I might be reading you in better faith than you're reading you in, both of the posts at the top of this thread come on very strongly that applying indie techniques to traditional modes of play and goals is the defining feature of Neo-Trad, and what I know of example games (4e for instance) don't really exclude sandbox play, in fact, they largely seem to encourage it by giving the players greater say in what happens next and what the GM will need to follow up on. Whether that's by allowing players to add details to a scene in the DMG 2, following magic item wishlists, letting them write down the quests themselves (thereby framing their own goals), playing rogues reflavored as fire elementals.I think we might actually be stumbling into the reason OC and Neotrad were conflated in the first place, the mechanics are chiefly used in ways that emphasize a player's ability to partially drive play, which also strongly encourage that play unfold in a way that is more similar to a sandbox when applied to a sim set of game rules, but one which centralizes the PCs because the players gain increased ability to tie themselves into the fiction, when contrasted with OS and Trad sandboxes which either downplay the fiction in favor of impartial-stance simulation, or up-play the fiction with the GM in the driver's seat.</blockquote>